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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sorry, sport and trans again

153 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 12/02/2018 13:04

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

OP posts:
Farmerswife36 · 13/02/2018 20:33

What's this got to do with trans ??

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 13/02/2018 20:36

What a great letter.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 20:39

It actually broke my heart reading that. It also made me angry beyond words.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 20:43

Farmerswife36

What's this got to do with trans ??

Did you read it? It's everything to do with trans.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 20:45

The MLK quote at the end is particularly poignant.

Heratnumber7 · 13/02/2018 20:49

I was under the impression that a change was only possible after a period of time on hormones which would negate any genetic advantages

So do the hormones make people shorter then? Men are generally taller than women, so would do better at sport where height is an advantage. They wouldn't suddenly lose 6" from taking hormones.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 20:53

Hormones won't relieve them of their male socialisation.

GrockleBocs · 13/02/2018 20:58

If a sportswoman took a small dose of testosterone resulting in her testing at a level of 9 (whatever the unit is) would that be legal or not?
If asking for anyone to prove they have a GRC or even questioning a self declaration of being a woman is not acceptable, how is a doping agency to know whether 10 is the artifically lowered or artificially raised value?
And if the answer is to compare history, can any athlete request their data is removed to prevent comparison?

MrGHardy · 13/02/2018 21:17

Beautiful letter, let’s hope this kickstarts a shitstorm on the IOC and other governing bodies.

MrGHardy · 13/02/2018 21:48

"I never said women should be put at a disadvantage. My point was in a compassionate society there is room for everyone."

Carrier how can you still not get it? You're posts are nothing but platonics. Stuff you find on memes. Nice soundbites that mean nothing. Yes, it is nice if there is room for everyone. But think it through for once. If you create room for TIMs in women's sport, what happens to the room for women?

Why are you so afraid of facing reality that might be harsh? Because yes, a genuine trans women is living a harsh(er) life for being trans. But the solution is not and can not be to prop her up by pushing women down. Is that so hard to understand?

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 21:56

The space won't expand to accommodate TIMs Carrier

What will happen, is that the space taken up by women will diminish and eventually disappear altogether.

QuentinSummers · 13/02/2018 23:09

I just read abput Hannah Mouncey. I'm gobsmacked the governing body have decided it's safe to allow a 6'5" 15 stone male to compete against females in a high contact sport. An opponent of Hannah came out of a game with a broken leg (this fact only being reported behind a paywall Angry)
I know it's Australia not the UK but really ffs

MrGHardy · 14/02/2018 00:36

Agerbilatemycardigan

Do you have a link or source for the letter?

BlindYeo · 14/02/2018 02:11

Fantastic letter. I hope it encourages more athletes, or ex-athletes at least, to speak out.

On a related note, I looked at the BBC article linked to by a previous poster. I then looked at all the photos available on google images. I note that the BBC have picked a photo for their article in which Hannah Mouncey looks most female. No body showing at all, only face.

One might wonder if they deliberately didn't pick one of the many other photos available in which Mouncey's build makes it obvious what a terrible decision this is and what female competitors are about to literally meet head on. But perhaps I'm just being cynical...

Agerbilatemycardigan · 14/02/2018 08:08

It was copied to Twittereceive MrGHardy
so it would just take you to the Twitter site.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 14/02/2018 08:09

*Twitter site

OvaHere · 14/02/2018 08:13

I think it was originally posted at the link below in January and has been translated since.

politica.estadao.com.br/blogs/ana-paula-henkel/carta-aberta-ao-comite-olimpico-internacional/

Datun · 14/02/2018 08:32

Agerbilatemycardigan

Wow! That's a wonderful letter.

I've read a lot of letters, statements, articles about this issue. But that really got me.

It's hard to write something so heartfelt without emotions like rage, bitterness or resentment being paramount.

But that letter embodies strength and tremendous dignity. A combination almost impossible to achieve when you are fighting for the most basic of rights.

Yet she did it. Spectacularly.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 14/02/2018 09:16

That letter is great. Her point about how female athletes need to prove through their whole sporting career that they have never had the benefit of male hormones. While transwomen are allowed to benefit from the everything male.

Bejazzled · 14/02/2018 10:22

quentinsummers

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-43044082

In such a full on physical contact sport as Aussie Rules Football someone (a woman) is going to get hurt. It's really worrying.

failingatlife · 14/02/2018 10:58

Really want to share that letter on fb but can only see a Portuguese? (Maybe Spanish?) version. Very powerful letter that should be shared far & wide.

OvaHere · 14/02/2018 11:11

failing This is the twitter thread from the person who made the translation. The translated letter appears to be a google doc.

twitter.com/Mocha_Soul/status/963475093153337344

Agerbilatemycardigan · 14/02/2018 20:59

It's a heartbreaking read Datun and she put it so much better than I've ever managed to when writing about my fear for my daughter who has spent so long training, and given up so much to get as far in her sport as she has.

I've now joined the Twittersphere, and wow - the huge push back from other people there regarding self ID is stunning, and gives me so much hope.

MaidOfStars · 15/02/2018 17:58

Just posted on another thread, but perhaps of interest to those here who like their stats

Many people radically underestimate the strength gap between males and females. Let's compare within a sport that's all about strength - Olympic weightlifting. The weight categories in weightlifting are different for males and females but both contain a 69 kg (10st 12lb) category. The male and female world record holders (combined lift = total of individual snatch and clean & jerk lifts) in this category are:
Male: Liao Hui, weight 69 kg, height 1.68 m (5'6''), age 30.
Combined lift 359 kg.
Female: Oksana Slivenko, weight 69 kg, height 1.64 m (5'5''), age 31.
Combined lift 276 kg.

These are two people who are the same weight, about an inch different in height and about the same age. The male lifts 83 kg more than the female, 30% more in fact. 83 kg is 13st 1lb.

So, the 69 kg male absolutely hammers the 69 kg female for strength. Where are the females who are stronger than him? How tall and heavy are they?

The answer is, in this sport, they don't exist. Coming in at the heaviest female weight category (+90 kg):
Female: Tatiana Kashirina, weight 108 kg (17st), height 177 cm (5'10''), age 27.
Combined lift 348 kg.

That's right. The male record holder for the 69 kg category can outlift the female record holder in the top category, a woman who has a 4 inch height advantage and over 6 stone of weight on him, a woman who might reasonably be described as the strongest woman in the world.

Tatiana WOULD beat the male records in the 62 kg (333 kg) and the 52 kg (307 kg) categories. So this beast of a female has a shot against males who are over 7 stone lighter and at least six inches shorter than her. 52 kg is less than half her weight and she's only pulling an extra 13% on the male lift in this category.

The strength gap between males and females is utterly breathtaking. It's not a "gap", it's the Grand Canyon.

Datun · 15/02/2018 18:22

I've now joined the Twittersphere, and wow - the huge push back from other people there regarding self ID is stunning, and gives me so much hope.

That really is encouraging Agerbilatemycardigan. And well done you for adding another platform for your voice.

I haven't done it. I know I should. But what with the gin and mumsnet, my addictions are at saturation point.

It just feminists? Or can you see the wider public waking up?

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