Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sorry, sport and trans again

153 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 12/02/2018 13:04

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

OP posts:
BlindYeo · 12/02/2018 21:47

I wonder what Seb Coe thinks of all this. I read on Wikipedia: Coe has been appointed a member of the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games Coordination Commission representing the Association of National Olympic Committees.

Perhaps it's time we started contacting people like him and sporting organisations.

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/02/2018 22:02

carrier

If you believe they are women enough to compete in sports

Then they are women enough to share a prison cell with your sister no matter what they had done?

They are women enough to use your changing room at the gym?

Snuggle up in bed together and watch a movie?

Be in the toilet with your Dds?

Examine your teenage dd when she has gynae problems?

They are women right ?

RatRolyPoly · 12/02/2018 23:03

Watching with interest.

Voice0fReason · 12/02/2018 23:25

It seems very simple to me. If you were born female you can compete in women's sport, if you weren't, you can't.
Thus ruling out any possible unfair advantage.

Maryz · 13/02/2018 00:13

Here are some girls who are afraid to speak out

It's easy to say "it's up to the competitors to decide if they will compete" - but in this case girls are being beaten by a boy, a boy who has had no hormone treatment, no surgery; there is no evidence he is a girl apart from the fact that "he feels like one".

He is taking victories away from girls. More importantly he, and other boys like him (eg Nattaphon Wangyot and many others), are taking scholarships and thus education away from girls.

The girl he beat is quoted as saying "I can’t really say what I want to say, but there’s not much I can do about it"

If she spoke up she would be branded bigoted and probably excluded from her sport.

Maryz · 13/02/2018 00:15

And here is Molly Cameron, who has been told they can't compete in men's races any more as they identify as female [baffled]

Sorry, sport and trans again
Materialist · 13/02/2018 02:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

larrygrylls · 13/02/2018 06:45

I do think a part of gendered behaviour is innate, albeit heavily reinforced by both socialisation and hormones. It is the subject of ongoing research and, as yet, not conclusively demonstrated one way or another. So, it is possible, in a sense, that there are some ‘women in men’s bodies’ (although I suspect, if true, that there are not many of them).

However it is the bodies that are competing here, not the brains or DNA. I just cannot see how any sane person can allow a born man to compete with a born woman. A feeling will not reduce height or already built muscle mass. Reducing testosterone by hormone treatment is like allowing off season anabolic steroid injections as long as it is reduced to an acceptable level for the event (only worse).

MrGHardy · 13/02/2018 09:33

I was going to post something but larrygrylls already said it all.

How is this even a debate?

Mumsnut · 13/02/2018 09:55

"I will never ever advocate discriminate against a person for something they cannot help, not matter how brisk you are with me."

Paedophiles, Carrier?

Who really believe they 'love' children and that children 'love' them back?

Should they be allowed to act on their 'feeling'?

Tinycitrus · 13/02/2018 10:21

What does it say to girls who are working so hard to be the best in a sport - that the odds are always stacked against them because transwomen are better than them and always will be and there is nothing women can do about it?

What are we saying to young women?

Valentinesfart · 13/02/2018 10:45

I didn't ask about your partner's genitals Hmm

I asked if you had a preference. We all know that having one is transphobic so I find it strange you won't admit that you aren't transphobic.

You have a genital preference because you know what women and man mean. You know how babies are made.

carrierwaveonly · 13/02/2018 10:55

Mumsnut. I'll try and respond to everyone in a bit (i'm at work). I really must jump on this one. Mumsnut, read what you wrote then go look up what was said to gay and lesbian people in the 1980s. Peodophilia has nothing to do with transgender people. To suggest such things is frankly irresponsible and could be argued incitement to hatred.

titchy · 13/02/2018 11:00

Peodophilia has nothing to do with transgender people

Oh the irony!

carrierwaveonly · 13/02/2018 11:01

you know what i meant lol

Mumsnut · 13/02/2018 14:53

Then don't use sloppy language, Carrier.

I am not equating paedophilia with trans. I am questioning your logic.

For example: I cannot see why an 'inner gender identity', should be put in a different logic box to an inner feeling of fatness (anorexia), of needing to have a healthy limb amputated (a form of body dysmorphia) or the belief that one is black, when one is patently white.

If an athlete of either sex and absolutely sound body wanted to compete in the 400m at the Paralympics, would you advocate for that? On the basis of the feeling in their head? Is it discrimination to say no?

Compassion, treatment, understanding - all are appropriate and necessary. But not suspension of disbelief.

YourVagesty · 13/02/2018 15:00

Don't know if anybody has mentioned Hannah Mouncey yet. They have been accepted into the Australian Football league. They thanked their supporters on Twitter but not the Australian Football league because:

'"I think it would be highly inappropriate for me to thank the AFL for allowing me to do something open to every other Australian, which the science and research has supported all along,"

'Science and research'? Right.

Full story here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-43044082

thedancingbear · 13/02/2018 15:00

This is the second time transgender people have been compared to paedophiles on this board today. truly, truly shocking.

BlindYeo · 13/02/2018 15:14

That's a disaster for women's safety in the sport yourVagesty. I hadn't seen that. Angry Sad

Doesn't surprise about not thanking the AFL. Wildly entitled people don't tend to do much grateful.

I wish every single other player in the team or the league would just refuse to take the pitch every single time Mouncey attempts to play. Let the fucker play - alone. Would they sack a whole team? Never did female sportspeople need a union so much.

Destinysdaughter · 13/02/2018 16:02

carrierwaveonly I don't know where you've come from but you seem to be popping up on a lot of these threads atm oh so reasonably espousing your bullshit views. The only good thing about it is that pp on here have the knowledge and intellectual capacity to crush your feeble views and show them up for the nonesence they are.

Stop wasting our time!

Pootlebug · 13/02/2018 16:15

Allowing Hannah Mouncey to play is disastrous for women's sport. Not only because her size and muscle mass will put women in danger, but also because if a sporting body are willing to allow a trans identifying male to play a high contact sport without regard for women's safety, what chance is there of keeping trans identifying males out of other sports like athletics and distance running where they are 'just' at a physical advantage in terms of winning. As a sports fan and a keen amateur sportswoman I am horrified.
I have got to the point where I would love to see a trans identifying male win Wimbledon this year just so the world would sit up and take notice of the sheer stupidity and unfairness of it all.

ReluctantCamper · 13/02/2018 16:19

theDancingBear don't be so disingenuous, it's quite clear from mumsnut's comment that she is in no way equating transgender people with paedophiles. Good grief.

Agerbilatemycardigan · 13/02/2018 19:07

Apologies if someone has already posted this. It's a letter to the IOC from a female volleyball player. She very eloquently explains why TIMs should not be playing women's sports.

Transl. Open Letter to the IOC

This is an open letter to the leadership of the International Olympic Committee (IOC), extended to the leaderships of the Brazilian Olympic Committee (BOC), the International Federation of Volleyball (IFV) and the Brazilian Confederation of Volleyball (BCV) in defense of professional women's sports by Ana Paula Henkel

Dear Sirs,
First of all I'd like to thank the BOC and the BCV for the opportunities bestowed upon me to represent my country in four Olympiads and numerous volleyball world championships. Those were years of enormous sacrifice and pleasure providing daily witness of the valorous ideals of Barão de Coubertin, ideals that will always reside in my soul.
To be able to represent my country among the best of the world is the greatest honour an athlete can dream of in their career. Among the titles reached certainly, the confidence, given to me, that I'd present the image of Brazilian sport, with respect and dignity, for 24 years of my life, is in my career, one of my most cherished achievements.
It is with respect but much concern that I write, to all entities responsible for sport, about the threat to the virtue of women's competitions that now occurs with the acceptance of athletes that were born men, developed muscle mass, bone mass, lung and air capacity as men, in forms of sport created and formatted specifically for women. If someone has to go public and pay a price in the name of truth, common sense and fact, I'm willing to bear the consequences. The space, won with integrity by women in sport is at play.
I'm proud of having inherited the values that built the western civilisation, the most liberal, tolerant and diverse of human history. This unique social and cultural legacy has allowed us, women, to gain our space in society, in the market and sport. It's in the celebration of our differences that we become more united, men and women, inside and outside the field and it is through that legacy that we can look upon each and every individual as a unique and special being.
At a time when political militancy condenses and reduces thinking to ideological soundbites that deny reality, it's not difficult to identify the trap where sports entities have fallen and which can take away all women's sport. We know of sports strength to elevate the human spirit above conflict and war, especially every four years, when, during three magical weeks, we witness that which is best and most noble in all of us. We need to defend that legacy.
The truth most obvious and most respected by all who are involved in sport is the biological difference between men and women. If this weren't the case why the need to to establish categories separated by sex? Why is the men's volley net set at 2.43m height and the women's at 2.24m? A good sense superficial analysis of men and women's physical traits in basketball is, enough to understand these categories are not interchangeable.
Swimmer Allison Schmitt set the 200m world record at 1:53.61, an admirable feat, but when compared to Michael Phelps' 1:42-96 in the same modality, it only evidences the physical differences between men and women. Women's under 17 football teams are used to training and losing against men's teams. There is an infinity of examples about how it doesn't make sense to mix men and women in sports where physical strength makes a difference to the end result.
Is it fair, to simply pretend away these undeniable biological differences in the name of a political ideology which will serve to restrict a space so hard won by women who struggled for it for so many centuries? How to accept "biological" men in fighting competitions, pitilessly hitting women, and then gaining acclaim, medals and money for it? Have we all gone so crazy as to permit such degradation?
Doctors are starting to pronounce themselves about the evident advantages of transexual athlets in female sports and contest the recommendation made by the ICO of allowing trans athletes in women's competitions with only a year of low level testosterone. Several physiologists have already attested that this IOC parameter does not revert the effects of the male hormone in the decades long already finalised development of bone, tissue, organs and muscle. Volleyball coaches in Brazil and Italy are already relating how sporting agents are offering places in women's volley teams to trans athletes, biological men who will occupy women's places in their teams. How long are we going to keep quiet while we witness this? I refuse to.
Sports people in general, and women volleyball players in particular's voices are being stifled. Many don't express their indignation for the total lack of protection by sports entities aiding and abetting this nonsense. "It's a great difference and we feel impotent", says Juliana Fillipeli, player for Pinheiros volley team, as she saw Tiffany Abreu, ex-Rodrigo, win against her team and, once again, beat the points record in that final. Tiffany, who played in Brazil's men's Super League as Rodrigo, is, in a very few games, now the highest scoring player in the women's Super League, leaving an Olympic champion and one of the best players in Brazil and the world, Tandara, behind.

During 24 years, dedicated to volleyball, I was submitted to the most rigorous anti-doping control by all sporting entities, including the Word Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). I was tested, while I competed and outside of competitions to prove my body was not built on testosterone at any moment in my life. For women, of all tests, the most important is the one which accurately measures the levels of the male hormone, which is strictly prohibited from use or its body production induced at every stage of a women's sporting life.
To summarise, ever since my adolescence, I need to prove, scientifically, that I am a woman to compete and, later, maintain my achievements, titles and medals. How many women did not lose titles or were banned from sport specifically on account of this hormone which is offal in a normal male body? There used to be a mutual trust between athletes, entities and federations to keep sport clean, fair and honest, with no shortcuts or trickery. This is now a relationship one step from being broken.
The sample material taken years ago for anti-doping tests of all athletes, is still kept today and can be at any moment accessed and tested again. A new measurement that proves testosterone levels incompatible with a female body can take titles, achievements of years or decades ago, away retroactively. This level of rigour has been completely abandoned to accommodate transexuals who, not long ago, were men, some of whom having competed professionally as men. What would a female transexual sample show? This is completely unacceptable.
There is a just and pertinent conversation to be had about the prejudices surrounding transexuality and homosexuality. Transexuals inclusion in society needs to be accepted, but this rushed and heedless decision to include biological men, born and built with testosterone, with their height, their strength and aerobic capacity of men, is beyond the sphere of tolerance. It represses, embarrasses, humiliates and excludes women.
We currently look on as sporting entities blind to human biology, in an attempt to hoodwink science in the name of politico-ideological agendas. We currently look on a moral perversion against women and the complicity of sport authorities around the world in a supreme form of misogyny. A declaration of good intentions of the entities responsible for protecting scrupulous and correct sport is not sufficient to justify such sizeable absurdity.
Sport has always been a great and respected vehicle for women's gains, a weapon that has always evidenced women's worth to those who have tried to impose limits to the dreams of all women who have struggled and fought to show our value, talent, capacity to overcome and merit.
On the week that we celebrate Martin Luther King, I leave, to world sport leaderships, one of his celebrated quotes: "Our lives start to end the day we silence ourselves about things which are really important."

MacaroonMama · 13/02/2018 20:26

agerbil that just made me cry. She is so brave to write all that, and so eloquent. I will be showing friends and family. Thanks for sharing xx

OvaHere · 13/02/2018 20:31

Amazing letter. I really hope the IOC take notice but I won't hold my breath.