Sorry, sport and trans again

[HairyBallTheorem]

I just had a WTAF moment watching the olympics. The most glaring reductio ad absurdum of the whole thing. Watching the (genuinely) women's speed skating. There is apparently a controversy going on about whether one of the skaters should be allowed to do her hair a certain way (on top of her head underneath the lycra hood to produce a kind of fin effect). The authorities are asking whether this gives her an unfair advantage by significantly altering the aerodynamics of her silhouette.

So - we're gonna police women's hairdos in the interests of fairness, but a bloke in the weightlifting world championships? Nah, that's fine mate.

The world really has gone stark staring bonkers

But you think.they should be allowed to.compete rather than a third category.

So how is that "room for everyone" cos when they are not competing they are gives to change alongside male bodies.

You have to pick a side.

Are you for women only in women's sports.

Or erasing women's sports altogether ?

carrierwaveonly - are you aware of the current move towards allowing people to self-identify their gender?

It is the intention of all political parties to change the law so that that without any hormones or surgery people can choose their gender and it will be a legal requirement to support their choice. See other threads on this forum. In particular the article on the Spectator which is linked to in the first post of Jeremy Corbyn has a new enemy - Mumsnet

To put that 10nmol/litre in context, that's about five standard deviations above the mean value of the female population i.e. it's vanishingly unlikely that a biological woman would naturally have testosterone levels that high. And that's before we get to the differences that reducing testosterone doesn't touch - VO max, height, reach, narrower pelvis.

Also is no one else smelling a rat that all these brave transwomen are switching to women's sports at an age when most athletes of both sexes are retiring? Hubbard and Fox, both late thirties/forties. Gabrielle Ludwig (basketball) well into their fifties (and a head taller than their teammates, and taking up an athletics scholarship which they should not be eligible for, having already had a men's scholarship in their twenties). And Australia has a top flight women's cricketer who's in their sixties. Not suspicious at all.

Or as I prefer to describe it, blatant in your face cheating all round.

Sorry but while I am passionate about trans in sport (idk why but it’s one the issues around trans that actually makes me angry, like really angry) this comparison is a bit unfair.

They’re not policing “women’s” hairdo as much as proper attire. Remember for men’s swimming when those super suits came out and eventually they said nah you can’t wear them. They do the same for ski jumping too btw and I’m sure several other sports.

But yes, your point stands. Clothes are heavily monitored but a bloke can just say “hey let me in”. It’s madness.

MaidOfStars doesn't the IOC have guidlines on when a trans person can compete in a different catagory? I was under the impression that a change was only possible after a period of time on hormones which would negate any genetic advantages.

I'd love to know how medical authorities can prove that a transwoman has exactly the same advantage as a female athlete to such a degree that it's less relevant than fin shaped hair.

Gileswithachainsaw. Nothing in life is ever so black and white as to require picking sides. We're all humans on a small rock that probably isn't super significant in the grand scheme of things, we need to find some common ground.
My opinion is that, so long as it is fair and rules are being observed and there is no proven advantage, then a trans individual should be able to compete in their preferred catagory. This would need to be under constant review and if down the line research showed that a trans person was ahead for genetic reasons to the detriment of their competitors then it would have to be looked at again.
Look at it this way, my boss always says there is no such thing as bad publicity, when i got up this morning women's NZ weighlifting wasn't on my radar. So in a random way its raised the profile of womens sports (slightly tenious i know!).

Fully aware of self ID. I would need to reflect on it for a while longer before I could offer you an opinion on that one!

There probably are loads of trans men competing. They just don't make the headlines for whatever reason.

Because it pretty much doesn't happen. They play on women's teams and no one complains because it would be terribly unfair to have them play on the mens. Pink News have done some "How brave are they stories" but they play are "out" on women's teams. You see, there are men and there is Everyoneelse

What advantage? nothing to see here.

Carrier - just because hose are the IOC rules doesn’t mean they are right or good.

The testosterone limit of 10? Yea, even too female athletes average around 1/3 of it (ca 3 iirc) - it’s nonsense. It’s a compromise pushed through by lobbying based on some initial studies. In fact, I did once read an article saying that the IOC doctors know it’s too high but can’t easily lower it. And anyway, do you honestly think a few hormones can negate, fully, all the advantages of male puberty?

Carrier, genuine question. Why does it matter what your innate gender is? What does that have to do with sports which are segretaed by sex due to physical difference? What team should non binary people play on?

HairyBallTheorem: i see what you mean, but i think the age thing is a red herring. people in their 30s and 40s may not have been aware that transitioning was possible. I grew up in the 80s under section 28. LGBT stuff just wasn't mentioned period. With widespread internet i guess more people are learning that it is possible. With time perhaps the mean age of transitioners will decrease.

The age point is relevant because a 50 year old woman like "gabby" could not play against teenagers on a Uni basket ball team.

Under any circumstances. She just couldn't. Half of women over the age of 50 have osteoporosis for one.

Sport is segregated by sex, because it is widely recognised that one sex has a distinct advantage over the other sex because of big physical differences in the post pubescent bodies of the two sexes.

Therefore you should compete in the category of your sex.

It's really not that complicated.

MrGHardy: in that case, a review should be required. I honed in on the IOC as it is arguably the most presitgious.

Valentinesfart: I found one!

I believe that it doesn't matter what anyones innate gender is. I try to treat everyone as individuals. I guess a NB person could play on a team most approriate to their physique (for example [i'm rinsing google today]);
www.active.com/cycling/articles/transgender-cyclocross-racer-allowed-to-register-for-men-s-nationals?page=1

Carrier come on.

You talk the talk but don’t ask the walk. Room for everyone - except women. Rules being followed - rules lobbies for? No advantage - except it’s scientific fact that they retain advantages. Testosterone level was already mentioned.

The whole bing is based on some studies looking at performance decrease in small studies of trans athletes and compare them to performance differences between male and female athletes. It ignores everything else such as how long do men need to take hormones before a certain level of performance decrease is observed - and there’s no answer. Some studies say 1 year and ofc that’s what was taken, after all IOC is progressive and all, other studies suggest 5-10 Years. Where that number 10 came from is a mystery as well. How there are men transitioning at old age and still competing, no one cares how that is possible. Etc. etc. etc.

Fact is, this isn’t science yet. We don’t know nearly enough. But the standard answer is “allow trans women in, screw actual women“.

It really is that simple.

Erase women's sports
Women only.

How ridiculous would it be to segregate by innate gender anyway. Especially when the activists are telling us there are 90 different genders.

You can't segregate sport by personality. It doesn't make sense.

The way this will work out is that women will start losing their places.
The women's world record of 10.49 seconds set by American Florence Griffith-Joyner in 1988 remains unbroken.

Take a look at the men's times and look where she'd rank playing against the men

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_World_Championships_in_Athletics_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_100_metres

The reasons for the late age of transitioning are irrelevant (I quite agree that it may simply have been not possible for various social reasons to transition earlier). The point is that they are suddenly competing in world-class international sport or top-flight national sport at ages when, had they stayed men, their performance would have dropped off due to age, so they would not be able to compete, and where biological women would have also retired, due to their performance dropping off with age. These are middle aged/elderly blokes (positive Methuselahs in sporting terms) yet miraculously they are proving the best or near best in their field... and we are supposed to believe that the derisory 10nmol/litre limit "levels the playing field". Self-evidently it does not level the playing field. As Valentines says, no biological woman in her fifties could play competitive college basket ball against early twenty something women. It just wouldn't happen. (I am a formerly very sporty woman now in her fifties - according to my physio I'm doing a lot better than most - and yet I am staggered at what a wreck my body is these days compared to what it used to be).

Look closely at that photo of Ludwig with their teammates - how can you not smell a rat the size of a bloomin' coypu? If the playing field genuinely had been levelled, if Ludwig's performance was reduced to that of even the best women athletes in her age group, she would not be playing.

Women would be actively avoiding Gabrielle as well. 8 years in the Navy and built like a brick shithouse and some of those girls would go down like a ton of bricks. It isn't safe. In America poor girls pay for college with sporting scholarships too.

You think that's bad - google Hannah Mouncey, the 190cm, 100kg transwoman who wants to play Aussie rules football (basically a contact sport very similar to rugby). So far they've been ruled out of the professional game, but is still playing as an amateur. They've already broken a woman's leg.

MOUncey has broken a leg already? How many leg breaks are there in the league a year? Coincidence the hulk of a man already did it? Yes right...

MrGHardy: Is it science though? Has any meaningful research been done. If this is a growing issue it should be looked at. If the 10t limit is too high that is problem with the system, you can't lynch trans sports people for complying with the rules as they stand. I think it is a bit far fetched to think that there is some ploy to erase women's sports as some posters seem to be implying. Who would that serve? Who is growing up thinking, hmm i wanna be a trans weightlifter for all the kudos and lucrative sponsorship deals?
I think the rules are well meaning to help everyone. If they aren't fit for purpose then they need to be re-examined accordingly.

You're being very naive about the lengths certain countries have and will go to win medals.

The only rule we need is women only. Cabt you see that?

Male babies have a bigger lung capacity from in utero.

We can't ever compete with that.

Stop being so "right on" and wake the hell up

What do you have against all females playing on one team. All genders. Like the sodding gender bread cookie.

And all males playing on another? So non binary transwomen etc all together.

See that would be progressive but notice that the activists don't want that.

how can you not smell a rat the size of a bloomin' coypu

I really liked that hairy. And I really like coypus. They are probably my favourite rodent.

And yy to everything else you said too.