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General Trans Discussion Thread

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IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sat 22-Oct-16 14:24:53

I seem to be hitting #PeakTrans on a daily basis now and thought it would be useful to have another general thread to discuss/post/share

If you haven't seen Magdalen Berns' recent blog post Why Do You Hate Transwomen it's really worth a look

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sat 22-Oct-16 14:30:19

I have also been very interested in Canadian Professor Jordan Peterson's recent speeches re the proposed laws on Trans issues (such as making a crime to 'misgender'').

This Free Speech one

And when he is huckled by the TA protesters

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sat 22-Oct-16 15:32:06

I love this one. The University of Michigan is allowing students to determine their own personal pronouns, so one student has made his 'His Majesty' grin

singingsixpence82 Sat 22-Oct-16 16:06:42

Any chance people could use this thread to alert us to other trans threads elsewhere on mumsnet? Sometimes they're not obvious from their titles but I'm trying to keep up with what's going on.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sat 22-Oct-16 16:53:52

Good idea.
This is a good article

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sat 22-Oct-16 18:12:50

Nice boots, Ibelieve! (You may have posted the wrong link...)

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sat 22-Oct-16 19:44:24

Hahaha! C&Pdisaster. They are lovely though grin

Cooking dinner now so will post the intended article later

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat Sun 23-Oct-16 11:20:37

More on Prof Peterson. I think I love this guy

NinjaFeminist Sun 23-Oct-16 12:15:53

Thanks for posting ibelieve - I hadn't heard of the professor before. Love Magdalene Berns, I've been following her on twitter & love how she deals with people & her videos are awesome.

Just an observation but the video with the TA's talking on & on & on & on & not allowing the prof to speak is such a well worn 'tactic' & one I find utterly infuriating. I can't think of a single person who would be persuaded by any argument presented in that way.

ArcheryAnnie Wed 26-Oct-16 00:30:21

Just dropping this here, this thing that according to the activists can't ever possibly happen:

user1477282676 Wed 26-Oct-16 00:34:04

The problem demonizing all transwomen, there will be victims. The majority of transwomen are not violent rapists or men who are pretending to be women in order to get access to their spaces.

There ARE some "transwomen" like that but they are not genuine transwomen.

ArcheryAnnie Wed 26-Oct-16 00:54:12

I completely agree User147 - but this isn't demonisation, it's pointing out male violence. You are deploying something similar to a #notallmen argument. Of course Not All Men are rapists, and Not All Transwomen are creeps who film women in public changing rooms.

But some are, and in the current circumstances, where we are constantly being told that it's no problem at all to have people with penises and a massive sense of male entitlement in sex-segregated women's spaces, it's necessary to point this out.

There's also a bit of the "no true Scotsman" argument going on here. We are also constantly told that anyone who says they are a woman is a woman, whether they have transitioned or changed their appearance or behaviour in any way or not. And then we are told that someone like this isn't a "genuine transwoman", despite identifying as a woman. Which is it or not?

user1477282676 Wed 26-Oct-16 01:10:21

I agree that those in possession of a penis shouldn't be allowed access to female the meantime, whilst those who are transitioning but still are pre op, should be offered a different space...another toilet, another changing room.

Xenophile Wed 26-Oct-16 07:11:16

Agreed, User, and these are offered and refused, because little of this is about accommodation and much of it is about validation.

ArcheryAnnie Wed 26-Oct-16 10:25:21

user147 what about those who don't want to transition or change anything at all about their sexed bodies?

There is case after case of male-bodied trans people (teens and adults) who are offered safe, private third-space facilities where they will be neither at risk from other males, nor will they be in women's sex-segregated facilities, and they have refused, because nothing less than invading women's space will do. It isn't about "we just want to pee in safety" or whatever the current slogan is, it's about male entitlement.

VestalVirgin Wed 26-Oct-16 12:43:04

The problem demonizing all transwomen, there will be victims.

Uh, no, there won't.

Unless you classify "male bodied person who truly identifies as woman being told to leave the women's loo and use the men's" as violence.

Transwomen are attacked and sometimes killed by men who are unhappy with finding a penis where they expected a vagina. Or who are uncomfortable with merely being attracted to a person that then turns out to be male. Or just by homophobic assholes.

Women not wanting males in our spaces has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps some transwomen get attacked by men in the men's changing rooms, but SO ARE GAY MEN. That does not make them female, and the solution to that is not to let them all into women's spaces.
Which by the way would completely defeat the purpose, as any man who wants to beat up other males could just identify his way into the women's space, too.
The ONLY people who profit from women's spaces being opened to males are those who want to harm women.

Prawnofthepatriarchy Wed 26-Oct-16 14:31:21

User147 you speak of those who "are transitioning but are still pre-op" as if this is the normal path trans people follow. But it isn't. Only 20% of transwomen have "bottom surgery". The remaining 80% have and intend to keep their male genitalia. As roughly two thirds of transwomen are sexually attracted to women, and these are the group most likely not to go through SRS, not wanting transwomen in our sex-segregated spaces is a no-brainer. Of course most are safe, just as most men are safe, but bitter experience is behind the creation of spaces set aside for women for their safety and dignity.

There is also the issue of AGP. There are a range of different areas in which AGP emerges. The most obvious is cross-dressing but there are others. Some get fulfillment by performing what they perceive as womanly activities, joining a knitting circle for example. Others are turned on by intruding into female spaces: getting a kick out of knowing women are alarmed. Others may get excited by listening or peeping at women urinating. Some find menstruation arousing. Obviously this is extreme, but one transwoman blogged about collecting used sanpro from bins. Fetishes are found among males, and transwomen are no exception. By no means all transwomen are autogynaephiliac, of course, but the fact that so many appear to be is a further good reason for standing firm against allowing any male person, regardless of how they identify, access to women's showers, prisons, loos, etc. The shadow of male violence is always present when males access female-only spaces, but the thought that someone in the next cubicle is wanking because he's listening to women using the loo arouses its own sense of violation and repugnance.

user1477282676 Thu 27-Oct-16 02:59:19

If a man is dressing as a woman but has no plans to have a sex change then he is not a transwoman but a cross dresser surely. Or even a drag queen.

user1477282676 Thu 27-Oct-16 03:00:14

But none of the drag queens I know have any desire to use women's toilets. They all have sex as men with other men too...I don't know one straight drag queen...only gay ones, and I know a lot of them due to my work.

user1477282676 Thu 27-Oct-16 03:01:37

I think the simplest rule is this

Got a dick? Use the men's toilets.

No dick? Women's is fine.

Or is that simplistic?

HeartsTrumpDiamonds Thu 27-Oct-16 03:24:31

I feel sorry for young teens today.

singingsixpence82 Thu 27-Oct-16 03:27:49

user1477282676 - you are not keeping up with what's going on in the world of trans. The majority of transwomen are now "non-op" - they haven't had and have absolutely no plans to have bottom surgery usually because they are completely comfortable with their penises. They are not accepting the "got a dick - use the men's" option and anyone who suggests that this option is a sensible one is now a transphobic bigot who should stfu then diaf.

Many cross dressers now claim trans identity and nobody is allowed to question this without the risk of being doxed, threatened, banned from whichever forum or site you're on etc. Things are looking very worrying.

singingsixpence82 Thu 27-Oct-16 03:28:54

In fact, were you to question this in public, non-anonymously, you risk even losing your job in today's climate.

TallulahTheTiger Thu 27-Oct-16 03:42:47

singing that's what worries me- I've only really found out about all this through mumsnet- I work with the General public in a health care environment, if I haven't been made aware that a patient is trans- no surgery/ looks like Danielle Moscado(sp?) and I find them in a female ward bathroom and say something could I be at risk of suspension for misgendering?! (The things insomnia makes you worry about!)

Redrocketship Thu 27-Oct-16 04:12:20

If a man is dressing as a woman but has no plans to have a sex change then he is not a transwoman but a cross dresser surely. Or even a drag queen.

It's already been pointed out that most trans women don't have genital surgery but a man doesn't have to even try to look like a woman anymore to be trans and have access to women's spaces. Look up Danielle muscato for an example.

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