General Trans Discussion Thread

[IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat]

I seem to be hitting #PeakTrans on a daily basis now and thought it would be useful to have another general thread to discuss/post/share

If you haven't seen Magdalen Berns' recent blog post it's really worth a look

how someone can have a penis but claim to be a woman? It doesn't add up to me.

Actually.. it seems to me no people with penises should ever be allowed in a woman's toilet or woman's space at all.

It's largely why my compassion keeps disappearing up the swanny.

I read a blog and it comes back again. Then I get re-involved in the bathroom debate and off it shoots.

ATrans - you're missing the point, and in that, proving that you don't belong in women's toilets, because if you can't respect boundaries, then you have potential to be dangerous.

Again. It's an honour system. We trust you to know if you are male or female, and use an appropriate changing/toiletting facility. It's not hard. If you find it tricky to decide, then avoid the one that discomforts and endangers women please.

Also, yes, FTT can have bottom surgery. It doesn't work the same way as a conventional penis though - they'd have to be very determined to rape me, and would be completely unable to get me pregnant (I imagine passing on STDs is rather trickier too)

And googling 'transman attacks woman' brings up nothing.

The whole pronoun thing, I find a bizarre logical deadend.

I'm not sure I can properly articulate it but the "My Pronoun" thing, I just can't get my head around.

I don't have a specific pronoun that I think of as mine. There is a pronoun that is usually used in relation to me, which is She because I am mostly identified as female (which I am) and it causes me no angst because I have no resistance to the idea of being identified as female. But I don't identify myself as female to others, they use the term that best fits their perception of me. Their perception of me is entirely their business. I can do things to steer their perception of my sex in the same way that as an overweight person, I can dress in flattering ways, cut my hair in a flattering way, don't slouch etc to steer their perception of me into one of 'slim person' but if I am ultimately perceived as fat, I have not been misidentified (however much I might not enjoy the descriptor). I get that if you have resistance to being identified as the sex you are, then the use of the correct pronoun must me jarring but it's not actual assault though is it?

That said, I would have no problem with calling someone the opposite pronoun if they asked me too, but outside of anybody's immediate social circle how is that supposed to work? How would anybody know how to refer to a stranger, do we need badges or apps or hand signals? Is accidental misgendering still a hate crime? Even if the person has asked you previously to use a different pronoun and you forget, is that "hate"? Is it now hateful to not have other people's identity at the forefront of your mind at all times?

ATransMum wrote - "You do realise that trans men can get lower surgery as well, giving them a penis?"

No, surgery does not give a transman a penis. Transmen can have something that only looks similar to a penis.

If someone isn't behaving appropriately in any kind of space they should be capable of being called out (and frankly thrown out).

Cool - so when men in men's toilets/showers/changing rooms behave inappropriately towards trans women using those spaces, the trans women can call them out and get them thrown out. Problem solved.

user1472515172

It's so illogical and biased when you bat it back, isn't it?

I have a genuine question about this. Wasn't sure where to post it so I've picked this thread.

I'm Spartacus. But I have an issue with something that comes up a lot on trans threads. People say: boys/girls display preferences in childhood for stuff associated with the opposite gender. But they're not trans, they're just gay. I can totally see that there is reduction in the harm that could potentially be done to a child by letting them be, express their personality and preferences in whatever way they like as they grow up. I agree with that.

But if we believe (as I do) that gender is a social construct, isn't it equally problematic to say that a boy who likes pink and sparkes is going to grow up to be a gay man, and a girl who likes drills and pirates is going to grow up to be a butch lesbian? Surely sexuality is as divorced from the nonsense of "gender" as biology is?

I agree, Jilly. I was a gender non-conforming child - I actually grew up straight. I don't know how the figures break down, but I know a heck of a lot of boy toddlers who love pink and sparkles - because, when you're 3, what's not to like about pink and sparkles? And drills let you make things which is fun, and playing pirates is adventurous.

Mostly Yes. My beautiful sister was a "tomboy" - a leader, not interested in frills and pink shit, troubled (I think) by her physical development in adolescence, boyish in her physique, not interested in babies etc. I remember a friend's mother saying of her once, "She'd better get a boyfriend or she'll turn out butch ."

Now she is a stunning woman who rarely wears skirts or makeup but is unmistakeably female in appearance, slim, stylish, and in a wonderfully happy relationship with a man (and she does all the cooking and he does all the DIY).

Surely sexuality is as divorced from the nonsense of "gender" as biology is?

Yes it is. And children should be allowed to be GNC. Sometimes early trans signs are just latent homosexuality/bisexuality playing out. Sometimes it's gender dysphoria. Sometimes it's just kids being kids.

Children do express gender from young ages. But you can't be certain a child is trans at that age in anyway. The current treatment protocol is only to start a child on puberty blockers when they hit tanner stage two if appropriate for the child (i.e. severe cases). Gillick competency plays into this as well. Before that any exploration of gender is purely social transition and totally reversible (other than maybe a few awkward family photos...).

And despite rumours to contrary there are children that go on blockers that don't transition.

Toy preference or even clothing preference isn't an indication of gender preference. It's an indication the child likes dresses, guns or sparkles.

Hormones and surgeries don't happen on the NHS until 18 at least, despite what the Daily Mail wants you to believe. Unless of course you find a private doctor or go overseas.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

So what IS an indication of gender preference then, ATM? And what is "gender preference" anyway? Isn't it just what you like to do/wear/think? Or, as I like to call it, personality?

Jill's, I've been thinking about that too.

I don't think gendered behaviour and sexual/romantic orientation are totally separate things. A very large part of femininity is about behaving in ways that are supposed to be attractive to men, and the opposite for masculinity.

That's the issue with Fox's Fishers comments about deviancy. Not only are they homophobic, but it also misleads people about how much of gendered behaviour is actually about sexual politics.

Faffing around whispering don't mention the gays doesn't actually make gender some kind of asexual behaviour,

Atransmum
What are the indicators that a child is trans?

People say: boys/girls display preferences in childhood for stuff associated with the opposite gender. But they're not trans, they're just gay.

Jilly, I don't say that at all, and I would be very surprised if many of the women talking here did.

I think possibly the confusion is that the (few? only?) studies done on outcomes of children reporting dysphoria and gender confusion say that something like 80% turn out to be gay rather than trans. What I don't know, because I haven't read the primary sources, is how that gender confusion manifested itself, and of course the children would not have grown up in a vacuum, but are shaped by their parents' expectations, too. I personally think any linking of "likes dolls = female or gay male", "likes trucks = male or lesbian" is utter bollocks.

Almond and Archery - yes, what you both say makes a lot of sense.

Channel 4 tonight. 10pm. My Trans American Road Trip. Abi Austen investigates the transgender bathroom debate.

Will be watching that tubas, thanks for that.

Ooh, that sounds interesting. Thank you, tubas.

I will be watching too. Although tbh I expect it to be pro trans and everyone else big huge bigots as fucking everything else is. With a few fundamentalist Christians thrown in for good measure.

But I hope I am wrong

Hi everyone. So I asked this on my other thread and haven't had any replies yet. Am I allowed to post a link to a blog of a teen who is gender critical? Me and DD were looking around and stumbled across it. It only has one very new post but I think its fab that young people are speaking out.

Why on earth shouldn't you? Fill your boots, Marvellous.

Okay, Prawn

gendercriticalteen.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1

Found it this morning. DD loves it already

I'm not Spartacus, and I am late to this, but I wanted to reply to this comment.

But if we believe (as I do) that gender is a social construct, isn't it equally problematic to say that a boy who likes pink and sparkes is going to grow up to be a gay man, and a girl who likes drills and pirates is going to grow up to be a butch lesbian? Surely sexuality is as divorced from the nonsense of "gender" as biology is?

I have two related points here. One is, there's a methodological issue here.

The majority of children do not go on to become homosexual adults. Therefore, even if 100% of homosexual men had adored pink sparkles aged 3, you could still very easily find that liking pink sparkles was a rubbish predictor of male homosexuality, couldn't you? Because there could be a much larger group of heterosexual males, who'd also loved pink sparkles aged 3, and who would mess up your data.

That's probably a side point - but it shows how important it is not just to look forwards from the child ('how will he or she grow up') but also backwards from the adult ('what was he or she like as a child, and what did we - or society - insist that meant?').

I mention this side of things, because I think this is where the issue with gender dysphoria and sexuality becomes interesting. And this is my second point.

I don't believe there's anything innate that would make little girls who're going to grow up to be lesbians, gravitate towards boyish toys/activities. But there is a powerful socialised reason. If you are a small girl who listens to stories about the prince who gets the princess, or who sees that the man who plays football marries the lady who wears pretty dresses, you take messages from that. And if you are a small girl who relates to the prince getting the princess or the man marrying the lady, you may end up thinking that in order to be the person who gets the woman, you have to be masculine. Right?

I base this on my DP and a lot of her friends, btw, though I was also a tomboy child who has grown up to be a feminine lesbian. It is also something that is often theorised by academics looking at the ways lesbians read fiction, which is something I'm interested in.

I think it's obvious that a lot of small children who engage in opposite-gender play are just playing. But I also think some of them might be gravitating towards those roles because society is heteronormative and has sent a message to those children that, to get XX they must be XY.