Witches / Pagans, how do you view Christian religious/spiritual experiences?

[hihello]

I'm a Christian and have been reading the witches thread with interest. I wouldn't automatically disbelieve any of the experiences the witches have talked about on this thread, I believe ritual, belief and intention can be very powerful. The reason I am Christian not a witch or pagan is that I believe in Christ. Regarding spiritual and religious experiences I have had prayers granted, immediate materialisation in a couple of instances and have had prophetic dreams several times (there is a thread on here detailing one of them). Just wondering how witches / pagans view these type of experiences.

[Insomma1]

I post on the witch thread because that is where I feel comfortable. I am too new to call myself a 'witch' and am studying the craft. From what you describe, I see only your belief system and possible methodology differs? The outcome is the same.

Having been brought up in a devout RC family. Many of my aged aunts would discuss religious phenomena or special 'gifts' bestowed on particular women they had known. Had those women not identified as Christians they would have been labelled witches by the community and shunned.

I wonder how your own Church/congregation view you and your gifts of prophecy?

[hihello]

Thank you for commenting Insomma. As for how others view my experiences I don't really share them that often in great detail. I feel that a lot of the dreams have dealt with content personal to me.

[speakout]

I too think it's all a similar energy.

Lighting a candle in church for instance, is a similar intent to a witch lighting a candle at her altar.

I do think that's where the similarity ends.

Many pagans ( as inclusive a word as I can find) have a big issue with christianity because of the power structures.

Most don't see themselves as flawed or sinful, and in no need of needing "saved".

Some witches are Wiccan- which is a religion, but some witches ar atheist.

[Movablefeast]

hihello I am a Christian too but found your thread interesting. I converted from atheism many years ago. However because I did not grow up with any spirituality I find it interesting how people with different faith backgrounds seem to have different vocabulary and even rituals around similar mystical experiences. In that, what we are experiencing is very similar.

[Insomma1]

@"movable feast" Yes, similar outcomes must mean.....? It's a big question in my mind, one that I haven't quite resolved yet.

On the other thread we discussed intrinsic power as opposed to an external force/deity. There are many different beliefs in witchcraft too but, for me, personal power seems to be growing as a more viable explanation for all the atheists getting the same results as Christians.

[hihello]

On the other thread we discussed intrinsic power as opposed to an external force/deity

Insomma However, in Christianity deity, God, is not only an external force. Christians believe, by accepting Christ, God is in them too. So there is intrinsic power from God. Added to this in they Bible it describes people as gods (small g). Here for example:

Psalm 82:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

So I do believe people have great intrinsic power but have not got the power of God Almighty apart or w from Him or without Him because He has all knowledge, can see everything, is eternal.

speakout Many pagans ( as inclusive a word as I can find) have a big issue with christianity because of the power structures.

Most don't see themselves as flawed or sinful, and in no need of needing "saved".

Yes, this is a big difference. I accept God's authority through Christ because I do think the potential power we have can be too much to handle for one person, alone. Recognising the exact nature of our own intentions and their potential to do harm if focussed upon and projected into the ether (sorry can't think of a better term) is something that bothers me regarding witchcraft. Accepting and been under God's authority is a safeguard against this IMO.

Moveablefeast, yes, I am fascinated too in different expressions of spirituality and mystical experiences.

[Insomma1]

@hihello Sorry, I was referring more to tapping into intrinsic power as in energy/electricity. No morality or judgement. No religion or God. Some atheists believe that it is little more than a skill. Doesn't depend on your self worth /value/core beliefs as there is no judgement.

I am not actually an atheist, more agnostic. But I am open to the above viewpoint.

[hihello]

I understand, Insomma. I too believe people can tap into power aside from morality, religion and God.

My concerns and the reason I choose to do this from the position of holding God in authority is I believe this power has the potential to be harmful / cause undesired events to materialise. From the perspective of a person it is impossible to predict all the knock on effects of our intentions framing our intentions in terms of wanting only what is God's will safeguards against harm / undersized effects of utilising this

[speakout]

hihello

But I wouldn't look to the christian god as an example of how to be responsible with power.

He sets a very bad example in the bible- and is happy to sit by and watch children die of starvation, killed in tsunamis, ravaged by viruses.

If your god exists he is either no omnipotent or he is incompetent

I would rather look to an adult elephant than your christian god if I am looking for a role model of altruistic behaviour.

[hihello]

speakout, I know you have an entirely different interpretation of God than I do, I have read your posts before. The God I worship is not the same as the one you describe though. My values are not consistent with your interpretation of 'Christianity'. I would not worship the god you (as describe him) either.

Interpretations aside, though, would you welcome a benevolent authority you could rely upon in order to help direct the focus of the power you believe you can tap into?

[speakout]

hihello

No.

I don't do spiritual authority.

[hihello]

speakout, I see. I do, in addition to my worship, because I know some people who have had their fingers burnt with witchcraft rather badly. Their experiences sounded pretty terrifying. How do you protect yourself and others?


But aside from that main big issue of authority do you regard the type of power I have experienced to be the same as the one you experience through witchcraft or something different?

[speakout]

hihello

I know nothing about the type of power you have experienced, so not in a position to be objective about a comparison.

[hihello]

speakout, I'm not seeking or even expecting objectivity . I'm not objective either. I was just interested in your and other's views regarding what I see as a religious experiences, as described in my initial post.

[hihello]

Reading between the lines, speakout, I'm guessing you are viewing the type of power, through Christianity, I have experienced as something distinctly different to the type power you have experienced, through witchcraft, otherwise you would believe you knew at least something of it as you would be able to draw connections between your own experiences.

[Vitalogy]

Psalm 82:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

So I do believe people have great intrinsic power but have not got the power of God Almighty apart or w from Him or without Him because He has all knowledge, can see everything, is eternal. That's the first time I've noticed a Christian mention this idea, well, on this board anyway. I've posted that Psalm before. I don't believe there's a separate Him though.

[hihello]

Vitology, really? I thought it was pretty well known. Well, yes, I do believe people have intrinsic power because of the nature of what we are. (Although I believe that is down to God too ). I think our intentions if focussed can be very potent and put to constructive or destructive use. It's the full knowledge of the permutations of all our intentions we can be ignorant of IMO.

[Insomma1]

A lot of what Jesus is reported to have said equally alludes to our inner power... I cant quote specifics but I recall wondering what they truly meant at the time. I've never had difficulty accepting Jesus existed or that he had the power to heal. To me he also represents goodness, peace and love. I have difficulty with the God of the old testament. As a child it was the reason I turned away from religion. I found him terrifying.

A lot of other reasons why I rejected religious doctrine over the years too but I sense 'light' when I think of a God. I sense it when I meditate too... not always and I'm always sad when it's missing. Kind of like a yearning. As a Christian, I assume you believe in the devil as an external entity? Are you concerned that that is the power source for witchcraft (even when their intentions/acts are good) and is that a concern for your own experiences and why you seek the opinion of of witches?

Sorry if this is all a bit heavy... feel free not to respond. I have enjoyed the discussion and learning different views.

[hihello]

I assume you believe in the devil as an external entity? Are you concerned that that is the power source for witchcraft (even when their intentions/acts are good) and is that a concern for your own experiences and why you seek the opinion of of witches?

Think so, sort of. I think the devil is a spiritual being which is against God. I think spirits can be internal or external. The lines get blurred when you talk about spirits because they are not material beings but can cause material manifestations.

My concern with witchcraft is that I believe it is difficult to fully understand intentions and all their knock n effects apart from God. Evil, to me, as a Christian, is something that is against God's will. When we pray, as Christians our intentions are only for manifestations which are God's will and so good is ensured within the way we frame our intentions. By praying to God we put our intentions under God's authority.

[hihello]

I talked about some of my experiences with people who got their fingers burnt with witchcraft here,

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophyreligionn_spirituality/3328612-My-daughter-is-a-Wiccan

The thread, sadly, did seem to get a bit antagonistic. However, as I have said, some of what the people I knew experienced seems to belong in the realm of a horror movie.

[Insomma1]

I truly believe you'd find your solace from discussing this with your fellow Christians. There will be many who have experienced phenomena I'm sure. In any event, it would be bizarre for Christians to reject you in light of the supernatural powers of Jesus.

Why don't you start a new thread if you find it difficult to speak in person to your congregation?

I will read that thread you've linked.

[Lessstressedhemum]

So, I am a Christian who believes that most, if not all, faiths are based on the same principles and yearnings. So peace, love, hope, morality etc. Personal salvation means very little to me and I never think about it. My faith is more about service and trying to be the person the God wants me to be.

I don't believe that the devil is a being. I believe that the Old Testament portrayals of him are allegorical. I believe very much that the devil is the evil inside all people and that faith in Jesus can help "drive it out".

I completely believe that there is value in all faiths and that many of the rituals from different traditions have the same aims and even the same outcomes. The difference lies in my belief that the spiritual power inside me is enhanced and driven by the Holy Spirit, a little piece of God within, as it were. Although, I also believe that everyone has this power if their intentions are broadly in line with God's will for us.

[hihello]

Insomma, I think you misunderstand. I have experienced no rejection from the church regarding my own experiences. I was just interested in the commonality of spiritual experiences, regarding occurrences and manifestations , from a Pagan perspectives since many Pagans seem to view their own experiences as distinctly different.

[Insomma1]

@ hi hello Ah, I was mistaken then. I had thought this power was troubling you. My apologies.

[hihello]

Lessstressed,

I don't believe that the devil is a being. I believe that the Old Testament portrayals of him are allegorical. I believe very much that the devil is the evil inside all people and that faith in Jesus can help "drive it out".

When I talk about spiritual being or entity that could be the 'evil inside all people'. Rather like 'Zeitgeist' is the 'spirit of the people'. I regard a great deal of our language and communication to be implicitly allegorical or metaphorical since our words cannot fully communicate phenomenon like for like. I