Witches / Pagans, how do you view Christian religious/spiritual experiences?

[hihello]

I'm a Christian and have been reading the witches thread with interest. I wouldn't automatically disbelieve any of the experiences the witches have talked about on this thread, I believe ritual, belief and intention can be very powerful. The reason I am Christian not a witch or pagan is that I believe in Christ. Regarding spiritual and religious experiences I have had prayers granted, immediate materialisation in a couple of instances and have had prophetic dreams several times (there is a thread on here detailing one of them). Just wondering how witches / pagans view these type of experiences.

@ hi hello Ah, I was mistaken then. I had thought this power was troubling you. My apologies.

No worries. I think these things can be difficult to communicate accurately.

@hihello Just something I picked up on from your posts in the other thread which I'll comment on here if that's okay. It seems you are concerned with intent when casting spells without a focus on God? I can understand this so please don't think I am criticising you. Notwithstanding the varied beliefs of Wiccan, Pagan, Christian Witches, Gnostics, Witchcraft, there are Atheists who respect the laws of physics and the universe.

However, there are, which in my view far more concerning, humans who walk the planet emitting all manner of negativity due to their chaotic thought patterns, hatred for others and so on. In my experience, affect can occur without prayer or spells but we rarely believe it.

However, there are, which in my view far more concerning, humans who walk the planet emitting all manner of negativity due to their chaotic thought patterns, hatred for others and so on. In my experience, affect can occur without prayer or spells but we rarely believe it.

Pertinent point. Would they see themselves / be seen as culpable, in their ignorance, though?

Regarding spiritual and religious experiences I have had prayers granted, immediate materialisation in a couple of instances and have had prophetic dreams several times (there is a thread on here detailing one of them). Just wondering how witches / pagans view these type of experiences.

As a theist, a witch, a pagan - exactly the same as you do I expect. My knowledge and belief in my gods are as valid as your belief in your god.

Elphame, thank you for commenting, it helps my understanding.

Elphame I notice you believe in gods. Do they ever disagree with each other? I mean, how do you decide which god to follow in which particular circumstance?

My relationship is between me and the deity in question. Their relationships with other deities is their own affair and yes I'm sure they quarrel but it doesn't affect me and I have more sense than to ask two incompatible beings to work together on my behalf.

I do not "follow" any gods. My gods do not have the hubris of considering themselves omniscient and omnipotent. Like humanity itself they are flawed. I honour them as divine but I do not worship them and they do not demand that from me.

I did not choose them. They chose me. I am also free to refuse a relationship which I have done. Some theistic pagans will indeed select a deity rather than being chosen but I can't speak for them as to their reasons for their choice. Everyone will be different.

@hihello Pertinent point. Would they see themselves / be seen as culpable, in their ignorance, though?

It's not about blame... We're only humans. None of us truly understands the universe, which is why we all disagree so much and have different belief systems. This is just energy being emitted. Human thought is the most difficult to harness... No one can be blamed for negative thoughts.

My animals have negative thoughts when they see a predator /victim. They can't be blamed for their own nature. Humans are just animals too... but some have better tools in which to harness their chaotic thought patterns.

I've enjoyed the discussions but I need to get back to the mundane.... Bye for now

Insomma, I'm not so concerned with blame rather than taking personal responsibility. If you've the ability to choose respond one way or another it involves some degree responsibility for the choice.

Elphame, thank you for elaborating.

I too think that effect can occur without prayer/spell casting or any kind of intent. Some people are just so full of negativity, both thought and emotion, that it spills out and effects everyone and everything they come into contact with. Perhaps without them even realising it's happening.

I think many people make the choice of negativity without realising the impact it has and so can't really be held responsible. Personal responsibility comes with accepting the consequences of your thoughts and actions and then choosing to shoulder those. In my experience, such negative people seldom choose to admit responsibility.

Oh I am so late but keep getting drawn back to this discussion

Taking personal responsibility is impossible I feel. There is personal responsibility in witchcraft spells and in prayer. Just in the last few seconds I've experienced all manner of involuntary thoughts - I can't control that. During meditation I am more aware of involuntary thoughts than I am in my everyday life, but I can't actually stop them.

I am becoming more aware of my 3rd voice/mind if you will. That silent gut instinct that can guide me if I only listen. But how can people possibly be blamed for not hearing it? Its one of the hardest things I've had to do. I know this sounds very spiritual but my original premise that affect can happen without prayer or spells has nothing to do with religion or even witchcraft for that matter.

Sorry less stressed... Crossed post

I respect your beliefs.

Vitology, really? I thought it was pretty well known. The power within the individual idea is definitely not promoted now or historically by the church, it wouldn't have kept it's power over people if it had.

I wish I could find the particular Bible version where I read it but it defined the ye are gods quote as being the people/judges in charge that were the gods.

Vitalogy Have you looked on Bible Hub? It's where I go when I want to compare versions,

I think it may have been the Bible Hub Elphame I'll have another look though, thank you.

insomma

Taking personal responsibility is impossible I feel. There is personal responsibility in witchcraft spells and in prayer. Just in the last few seconds I've experienced all manner of involuntary thoughts - I can't control that. During meditation I am more aware of involuntary thoughts than I am in my everyday life, but I can't actually stop them.

I know how you feel. I think the key is to dismiss them if you feel they are wrong, anxious thoughts for example. As part of my prayers I often pray that I dismiss and forget those thoughts which are against God's will. Distraction is good too. So visualise or settle your mind on something more positive.

The thing is, we are only just learning. I liken our bodies and minds to very powerful cars when we are only learner drivers and keep crunching the gears or steering out of control.

Bible Gateway has lots of different Bible versions.

www.biblegateway.com/

Vitology

The power within the individual idea is definitely not promoted now or historically by the church, it wouldn't have kept it's power over people if it had.

There are Christian hermits and anchorites, though, such as Juliana of Norwich.

Bible study tools website has this one from The Message Bible: I commissioned you judges, each one of you, deputies of the High God.

And this one from New International Readers Version: I said, 'Rulers and judges, you are "gods." You are all children of the Most High God.'

I don't know how popular these versions of the bible are btw.

"For I saw no wrath except on man's side, and He forgives that in us, for wrath is nothing else but a perversity and an opposition to peace and to love."[45] She wrote that God sees us as perfect and waits for the day when human souls mature so that evil and sin will no longer hinder us.[46] "God is nearer to us than our own soul," she wrote. This theme is repeated throughout her work: "Jesus answered with these words, saying: 'All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.' . . . This was said so tenderly, without blame of any kind toward me or anybody else."[47]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julianoff_Norwich

There are Christian hermits and anchorites, though, such as Juliana of Norwich. I'm not sure what that's got to do with it.

Vitalogy, just that there does exist traditions within Christianity which value personal individual revelation.

Yes, I see what you mean. The overwhelming push seems to be us being ruled over by a god that's separate from us though. Also that Jesus is separate/different from us. I believe Jesus was an enlightened human as was the Buddha and the likes.

Vitology, that is not my experience of Christianity. I believe this, as it is written in John 15:

"5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit..."

So Jesus is close, actually part of / attached to Christian believers.