Witches / Pagans, how do you view Christian religious/spiritual experiences?

[hihello]

I'm a Christian and have been reading the witches thread with interest. I wouldn't automatically disbelieve any of the experiences the witches have talked about on this thread, I believe ritual, belief and intention can be very powerful. The reason I am Christian not a witch or pagan is that I believe in Christ. Regarding spiritual and religious experiences I have had prayers granted, immediate materialisation in a couple of instances and have had prophetic dreams several times (there is a thread on here detailing one of them). Just wondering how witches / pagans view these type of experiences.

Sorry, name change fail. I use that name for running threads. It's me, in the last post, anyway.

HiHello

But people are taught how to use knives properly and safely I assume you are deliberately missing the point here. Your friend deliberately used the craft in a way to cause harm and suffered the consequences. Whether her actions did or didn't cause the harm she certainly intended that they would.

You do seem to have an agenda. You don't like witchcraft. Fair enough. You don't have to but you started this thread. I don't think there is anything productive to be gained in carrying this on any longer.

In the words of the immortal Dave Allen "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you"

Elphame, you must be able to appreciate this is difficult ground for me because I was very close to the person I have spoken about. What you are suggesting involves questioning who she was. It is a much easier narrative for me to view her as making an awful mistake when she was vulnerable and grieving.

Vitality, no I'm not in people's heads but I do have pastoral care of a lot of people and I have been in Christian for a long time and in lots of places. Discussion about things like prayer is a regular thing in my life. So, I do know how quite a lot of people think about this. As for the lp, lots of people are so familiar with it that it has lost a lot of its meaning for them. I sometimes do study groups focused on the LP to try to reinvigorate folk's prayer life.

Speakout, I know how you feel about Christianity, but, for me, if Jesus tells us to pray for our enemies then Christians should pray for their enemies. He is, after all, the focus of our faith.

Duh! Name fail again!

I'm a Wiccan, which is the initiatory, more religious version of the craft. We do a lot of training as it is accepted that control of yourself and any power you channel is important. The power is within us all, because there is nothing of us that is not of the gods; every human, other animal, every tree and stone contains part of the overarching divine. 'Do what you want, as long as you harm none' is a powerful maxim to live by because you must consider every action you take and whether it harms yourself, another, the environment, etc and how the balance is made. You can do what you want but you must accept the payment that the balance requires. Actions have reactions and you should think them carefully through before acting. 'What goes around comes around', or 'sow the wind and reap the whirlwind' are similar. To finish a spell with 'may this be for the good of all' is a useful phrase: you may ask for money, but you don't want it to come in the form of life insurance from the death of your nearest and dearest.

I am not an atheist but I don't have any particular views on the gods; they are so beyond our understanding that we cannot understand and we only see what we are meant to see, whether individuals, archetypes, or whatever, it doesn't matter. But this is my own personal opinion and not indicative of others' opinions. I have certainly seen them in action though as well as being shoved to the back of my own head as a bystander to watch myself; I have seen a priest who spoke broken English speaking in fluent, relevant, poetic English, and the other way round in a priestess tapping into the spirit of the land which spoke a different language. I have stood barefoot in the circle at Stonehenge with shut eyes and heard the murmer of voices chanting and drums beating, only to open my eyes to find people still preparing the ritual and drums and chanting silent, and to hear it again as soon as I shut my eyes. I have experienced Coventry Cathedral as a place of immense power.

@TooManyPaws I'm not sure if you're on the other thread re witchcraft. But I brought up the fact that in parts witchcraft promotes harm to others. The question has still been unanswered.

Do what you want, as long as you harm none' This is reassuring, so how do resolve the issue of harm being either condoned, promoted or the tools given in parts of witchcraft?

Vitalogy

Your question makes no sense that's why.

Give someone a hammer.

They could build a house, knock someone dead or smash their own hand.

This is not the responsibility of the hammer.

As you said before we're human, we make mistakes. Premeditated willing, using tools, condoning and promoting harm onto others is a completely different matter. When we make mistakes we don't choose. Premeditating something is a choice.

There are parts of witchcraft that resonate with me, the same with many of the other religions. All parts of witchcraft just aren't covered on the other thread, just the nicer bits. Doesn't make the other parts of witchcraft go away.

My concern is that the type of power we are talking about is potentially immense supernatural power affecting life events in a way that people couldn't ordinarily very easily affect them. How on earth can you train in order to be able understand and perceive all the knock on effects of that type of power? Even if you only believe you might have or be able to affect events in this way that could could have an incredible psychological effect on a person. I'm not sure it is possible to use that degree of power entirely responsibly as everyone is angry or vulnerable from time to time.

Premeditated willing, using tools, condoning and promoting harm onto others is a completely different matter. When we make mistakes we don't choose. Premeditating something is a choice.

You think that is confined to witchcraft?

You clearly have no experience in a business environment.

speakout, so how can you wield the type of power we are talking about in witchcraft responsibly? Realistically? You can't possibly extrapolate all the knock on effects of changing life events, personally, supernaturally, just because you fancy it, can you?

You're just avoiding answering the question yet again.

hihello

How can you wield all the power that being a homo sapien gives you responsibly? Realistically?
As a supervisor? a CEO?

How do you deal with being the head of a large company employing thousands of people with that responsibility?

I really don't know how they cope.

Vitalogy

I'm not avoiding your question- not at all, but your question has such bias it is not possible to answer such a loaded question.

Laws and regulations can cover the powers a CEO or supervisor might have. Governing supernatural power is not so easy. For one thing little evidence is left, when supernatural power is exercised, so a person cannot be held accountable to other people for their actions. There are also few limitations to supernatural powers. The possibilities are quite literally endless.

Bias? I've said there are positives in witchcraft. Not once have you admitted that in parts witchcraft promotes harm to others.

I'm still wondering about that lad btw.

I'm still trying to work out what on earth you think the harmful parts of witchcraft are in order to answer your question.

I have several friends who have been very badly hurt and abused by Christianity. One who was born in Bessborough went to his grave angry that he did not find out that he was living a couple of miles from his mother until after she died. In Scotland, we currently have the investigation into child abuse, person after person telling how the actions of supposedly devout Christians ruined their lives. For a previous job, I had to read all the Irish reports into the abuse of women and children by Christianity - because the Protestant churches were involved too.

What have you to say about that Christian wickedness, Vitalogy?

You are always responsible for your actions. Every action has a reaction. The power of return is in the universe.

We do not have a great long list of Do Nots. We are required to contemplate every single probable and possible outcome of our actions and choose what is the least harmful to all, including ourselves. The right actions come from yourself, from your True Self, not imposed by an outside authority. If you are only kept moral and just by outside strictures, then there is little morality or justice within you.

The gods are far more persevering in the pursuit of justice than I am or can be.

I'm still trying to work out what on earth you think the harmful parts of witchcraft are in order to answer your question The spell casting to bring harm onto others as I listed from the book link. The worst being how to kill your enemies.

What have you to say about that Christian wickedness, Vitalogy? I'm not a Christian. So that can't be used as a deflection either.

You are always responsible for your actions. Every action has a reaction. The power of return is in the universe. I agree.

choose what is the least harmful to all Right, so it's now changed from "do no harm" to "the least harm"

The right actions come from yourself, from your True Self, not imposed by an outside authority. If you are only kept moral and just by outside strictures, then there is little morality or justice within you. Totally agree. This is what is at question here. Seems like people are avoiding it or burying their head in the sand about it though.

@TooManyPaws

I believe your god is a god. Not one I honour though. To me, he and his followers just were a bit more aggressive with the PR. I don't dismiss christian experiences, they're valid, why wouldn't they be? I run a pagan/witch shop. I have plenty of christians coming in with gifts, which they believe have been given by their god. I believe them.

There are a lot of corruptions and falsehoods within the christian church as a whole, which i could talk about all day, but when I meet a christian who has a personal belief/relationship with their god, i respect that, one who doesn't just follow the herd so to speak.

Nearly finished my work today- was up at a dawn yoga class.
30 minutes of work left, I am finishing off some handfasting favours. trip to the post office.

Then tidy house, and do some cooking- that's all the fun part.

Merry Mabon.

Right, so it's now changed from "do no harm" to "the least harm"

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Vitalogy are you being deliberately obtuse or are you simply just this blinkered?

No one can go through life life doing no harm. No one, even you, could be as stupid as not to understand that. Even the action of deciding between two choices may cause harm by default through not taking one particular route. Even by washing, by walking, by eating, you are causing harm to living creatures, even at the microbe level. This is part of many belief systems, including Buddhism. Make your choices with knowledge.

Many ignorant people misquote Aleister Crowley - who was a high magician, not a witch - but his most well-known saying is pertinent. "Do what thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law." He actually went on to say "Love is the Law. Love under Will." What he means, as is clear in his writings, is True Will. Your True Will is only discovered by many years of studying and working, and is always in tune with the Will of the Universe. Once you have encountered your True Will, following it will always following that of the Universe. A lot of hard work and not as simple as following a few prescriptive stone tablets. Witches work to discover their own will in line with the universe too in simpler ways.

Try reading "The Magical Battle of Britain" by Dion Fortune, or Gerald Gardner's account of the work of the New Forest Coven in attempting to ward of invasion. Were Hitler's attempted assassins wicked because they tried to murder to prevent more war deaths, genocide and murder?

Read the fucking threads without your distorting goggles and you'll find that I'm on the witches' threads. Shows your lack of actual comprehension of what you read.

What have you to say about that Christian wickedness, Vitalogy? I'm not a Christian. So that can't be used as a deflection either.

You're not a witch yet you're happy to mump your gums about us though. Not very consistent or just biased?