Witches / Pagans, how do you view Christian religious/spiritual experiences?

[hihello]

I'm a Christian and have been reading the witches thread with interest. I wouldn't automatically disbelieve any of the experiences the witches have talked about on this thread, I believe ritual, belief and intention can be very powerful. The reason I am Christian not a witch or pagan is that I believe in Christ. Regarding spiritual and religious experiences I have had prayers granted, immediate materialisation in a couple of instances and have had prophetic dreams several times (there is a thread on here detailing one of them). Just wondering how witches / pagans view these type of experiences.

Except you don't need to be religious to practice witchcraft.

Nobody, thank you, that is interesting. Do you think that this 'metaphysical phenomena' has the essential nature of Christ? (Even though some people might use a name that, in their own language, sounds different)

as human beings are fallible, all religions can fall foul of the same corruptions and abuses of power,

Do you think that is a corruption, in us, that is aside from the metaphysical phenomena you described above?

Except you don't need to be religious to practice witchcraft.

I never said you did.

speakout, so do you think witches tap into an alternative energy to Christians? Or that they can but might not or that the energy is the same regardless of the beliefs of the people who draw power from it?

My question is mainly to do with what people think of the type of energy that is in use, whether it is the same between Christian mysticism and other types of mystical experience such as in witchcraft. I'd say it's the same. Like in all walks of life they'll be a positive and negative. I'd say they both have some of each, neither owns one or the other.

I believe Christ was human like the rest of us, so think it's nothing to do with going through Christ, working as Christ did, yes.

That's kind of what I believe, Nobody. That the power is there and, regardless what you call it or what you do or don't believe, anyone can access it. As a Christian, I believe that power comes from God in Christ, others may believe it comes from the Hindu Gods, tribal Gods, the Goddess, from within themselves or from the energy inherent in nature. But, as far as I am concerned, it's still the same power and it can be tapped into by anyone who so chooses.

Elphame, I am aware of the tenets of the craft (my Dd is Wicca curious). Interestingly, August e wrote that Christians should, "Love God and do what you will". The idea being that of you love him, you will want to do God's will. But it also makes it clear that we are responsible for our own actions and we have to own them and any consequences of them. So if you wish/pray for bad things and then they happen or act in a negative way and something bad comes of it, then any regret or guilt is the price you pay. The difference being that in Christianity, if you are really sorry and try your best to change your behaviour, God will forgive you. I something that can be a bit of a cop out for people!

Obviously, it was Augustine who said it.

Part of the definition of religion: a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion

Hihello It didn't go wrong though did it? From a witchcraft point of view It went exactly right. She got what she wanted - ie the other person to know how she felt when she was hurt. That she didn't like how she felt afterwards isn't relevant.

Like speakout I'm not qualified to comment on Christian mysticism.

I see a lot more comments have been posted whilst I was responding to Hihello. I'm going to be offline now for the rest of the day so I'll pick up tonight if I can

Lessstressed

So if you wish/pray for bad things and then they happen or act in a negative way and something bad comes of it, then any regret or guilt is the price you pay

Except when you pray, as a Christian, you frame this in terms on only wanting what is God's will to come to pass. Christians believe God is good so needn't be afraid of bad things resulting from their prayers.

Elphame

It didn't go wrong though did it? From a witchcraft point of view It went exactly right.

I see that, yes. But the regret suggests it was wrong in terms of what she really wanted to happen in the longer term. And if people act in haste with witchcraft I can see how negative situations could escalate.

Like speakout I'm not qualified to comment on Christian mysticism.

That's ok but I'm not expecting people to be 'qualified'. Who qualifies, anyway? I'm interested in lived experiences.

If you are saying you are not qualified, Elphame, speakout because you consider your own mystical experiences as different and separate from Christian mystical experiences, so you cannot be qualified in terms of having the experience, you can say so. Or are you saying you just don't know enough about Christian mysticism to comment on it?

Very quickly - the blame for her feelings and regret falls squarely on your friend.

Don't blame witchcraft. It's a tool, nothing else. Like a knife. She could equally have taken a knife to her target to make them suffer. Of course she'd have been prosecuted for that but the principle's the same. A knife is a tool. It can be used for good or ill depending on the intent of the wielder.

Back later

Don't blame witchcraft. It's a tool, nothing else. Like a knife. She could equally have taken a knife to her target to make them suffer. Of course she'd have been prosecuted for that but the principle's the same. A knife is a tool. It can be used for good or ill depending on the intent of the wielder.

But people are taught how to use knives properly and safely. Shops don't sell knives to children. There are clear laws governing the use of knives. Does the same thing occur within witchcraft? It can't to the same extent really, can it? There is no solid proof someone's witchcraft has caused anything to happen.

Hihello, I don't think that is always the case, though. I have known people to pray for many things and also to very seldom pray for things to happen according to God's will. I also know that very, very few Christians pray for good things for their "enemies". I've known people to pray for everything from new shoes that they like to people who have hurt them to feel their pain. These things are obviously not concerned with God's will at all.

If you pray for something outside of the will of God and it happens, then you have to live with the consequences of that. Forgiveness only happens when you truly repent and try to turn away from the behaviour that caused the problem in the first place.

When I say shops don't sell knives to children I am not saying people would encourage children to cast spells, just that society can govern knife use to a certain extent. However, correct me if I am wrong, no special equipment is required in witchcraft. Witchcraft often leaves very little evidence,

Just as an aside, I have been a Christian for a very long time and, amongst other things, am an elder in my church and have a degree with a Divinity component. So I have spent a lot of time thinking about these kinds of thing!

If you pray for something outside of the will of God and it happens, then you have to live with the consequences of that

But if you pray, using the Lord's Prayer you would be familiar with 'Thy will be done'. And God grants prayers that are His will. I am surprised that a Christian would consider praying outside of Gods will. Who or what would they be praying to?

Many Christians use, 'If it be your will' or 'according to your will' in their prayers.

Just as an aside, I have been a Christian for a very long time and, amongst other things, am an elder in my church and have a degree with a Divinity component. So I have spent a lot of time thinking about these kinds of thing!

Excellent, thank you for commenting on this thread. Earlier, when I referred to the question of qualification, I just wanted to stress that I really am interested in views from all perspectives, for the purposes of this thread.

Many do, hihello, but many don't. Lots of folk actually only pray at church on a Sunday. I know many Christians for whom this is the case. They perhaps haven't been brought up in a praying environment so solitary prayer is uncomfortable or odd for them. I tell people that any time they think about God it is a prayer to try to make the whole idea a bit easier for them.
But I also know Christians who don't generally think about God in their day to day lives. It's not my place to judge them or question their faith just because it is different to mine. Nor would I expect them to judge me, but I know that some do. As above, I am very accepting of other faiths and paths to God and I think that the love of God and the power of God are available to everyone. This is not a very popular attitude in some Christian circles. And the fact that I have a prayer space in my house that changes with the Wheel of the Year is regarded with downright suspicion and even outrage because it is "unChristian".

I think what I am saying is that not every Christian views their faith the same way, nor does it have the same importance in all our lives. Very little surprises me nowadays about how people choose to live out their beliefs, regardless of faith or lack thereof.

As to whom people are praying to when they pray for things not directly related to the will of God, mostly, as far as the ones that |I know are concerned, they are praying to God. Their desire for new carpets or for someone to feel their pain or whatever, is strong enough that they believe God will answer. If these things happen, they credit Him or not regarding how they feel about the answer. If they feel guilt, that is the price they pay. As Christians, though, they can seek forgiveness to assuage their guilt. That's why I said that feeling forgiven is sometimes a bit of a cop out.

@hihello... It may be worth considering that your friend had nothing to do with the outcome. The result could be down to the individual herself, that is, if you cannot accept mere coincidence.

I've witnessed some strange things over the years which some people would describe as Natural Justice /Karma... or a manifestation as a consequence of the person's own obsession.Not strictly a punishment, more of a consequence of whatever that obsession maybe...I'm still not clear what the individual did to your friend?

In any event, it may be better for your friend to seek a cognitive therapy type counselling to dealwith her guilt rather than spiritual. I truly don't see how it can help her unless she wants to pursue either path more fully.

I think what I am saying is that not every Christian views their faith the same way, nor does it have the same importance in all our lives. Very little surprises me nowadays about how people choose to live out their beliefs, regardless of faith or lack thereof.

I see. It shouldn't surprise me really because I know there are people who regard themselves as 'cultural christians' who go to church but don't actually believe in God. Of course they are welcome and rightly so, it's a good place to hear about God and share Christian values. It becomes problematic, though, when meaning in Christianity is eroded.

Insomma sadly the person I knew has passed away since. I think she had comes to terms with the events I described but it still haunts me sometimes as she was much loved by myself included. Yes, the events might not actually be a result of her witchcraft. The individual was a senior work colleague who was extremely unsupportive of her working only her contracted hours when she wanted to give her time to visit her terminally ill sister.