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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that this massive women’s rights issue is going under the radar. (As it’s being hidden from them.)

139 replies

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 19/08/2018 21:43

So AIBU to think that this massive women’s rights issue is going under the radar?
Excuse the length of this post ...A couple of days ago I was wasting time on Facebook. When I had a nose at the Lib Dem local home page in my area. They had a poster photographed in one post. The poster reads as follows; ( I can’t post a picture of the post.)

“WOMEN
Did you know that there are men,
Who have assaulted & raped women housed in U.K. women’s prisons because they claim to be women?
Did you know that groups are going into schools & telling kids they can ‘choose’ wether to be a boy or a girl & that these groups receive children in need and lottery funding??
Did you know that proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will mean that a man is allowed into women’s spaces (changing rooms, sports teams, swimming sessions) just by declaring himself to be a woman?
Want to know more? CHECK OUT
@Man FRIDAY,@transgenderTrd @womansplaceuk @resisters @lillylilymainard @ sexfenderethics”

So...they have made the point that they think this is not acceptable. Also that is transphobic. They have asked anybody who sees the posters to remove them.
I commented that I didn’t think it was transphobic, because it contained no openly aggressive or hateful rhetoric. I then decided to follow the twitter link thingies and have a read to see what was all the fuss about. Still not finding anything phobic. I went back to the Facebook page and said- I’ve followed the links which (briefly) amongst other things talk about how women are worried about giving away their safe spaces to trans men who may be attracted to women depending on their nature. Like toilets changing rooms etc.
So there followed me being told I must be transphobic. Because I had that worry. That even just wondering about wether it was safe to allow trans men into women’s private spaces was transphobic. I wasn’t happy but I didn’t get abusive. I replied with a link to Jenifer James’s campaign. They hid my comments, and then named me. Then went on to say I was disgusting. Transphobic, and a bigot. Nobody had any idea what I had actually said as it was hidden. Luckily as I was the first to speak I was able to delete my first comment and stop myself being painted as some kind of head case.
A day or so later I decided now that I was feeling a bit freaked out at feeling I’d been shut down harshly to have a look on the feminism forum here. I have posted in the feminism activism area on the feminism forum. I can’t link as it breaks the forum rules. ( I think this is ok though.) go and have a look about a thread mentioning posters popping up around Bromley..

OP posts:
argumentativefeminist · 19/08/2018 21:46

Get back over to feminism chat hun. I'd reckon most people, especially on mumsnet, already know about this. We don't necessarily want to see it plastered over every single board.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/08/2018 21:47

Didn't we just have this thread? Only I swear there were replies.

Confused
Carrrotsandcauliflower · 19/08/2018 22:06

My fault it got closed as I had added a link back to my story in the feminism activism area of Mums net- I didn’t realise you can’t link to other areas it breaks forum rules. Sorry all that commented, but I think this thread is safe now Smile please add your views again if you would like to I’m sure nobody will object.

OP posts:
Carrrotsandcauliflower · 19/08/2018 22:07

Oops someone already has Grin

OP posts:
longwayoff · 19/08/2018 22:10

Scratch a liberal, find a fascist. A firm belief born of experience.

noeffingidea · 19/08/2018 22:12

Get back over to feminism chat hun
The poster can post this where ever she wants, it's got fuck all to do with you.

LouMumsnet · 19/08/2018 22:20

Evening (again) folks.

We can see the confusion here. We've already deleted one TAAT by Carrrotsandcauliflower tonight .

To be fair, Carrots is right in saying tthat this is a duplicate rather than a TAAT.

So we're happy to leave this one standing if folk want to discuss it in AIBU rather than elsewhere.

But, OP, please don't start any more duplicate threads or you're risk causing even more confusion at this advanced hour Grin

Thanks all.

Carrrotsandcauliflower · 19/08/2018 22:26

Sorry to cause any confusion, thanks very much for the help.

OP posts:
Labradoodliedoodoo · 19/08/2018 22:30

Shocking these people represent Lib Dems. Silencing women with no concern for women’s rights

MrsFogi · 19/08/2018 22:58

I'm sorry you stumbled on the topic OP and then got accused of transphobia simply for voicing your view. Unfortunately you have discovered what is worrying many - that women are not allowed to ask questions or voice concerns about proposed changes to law that will have a massive impact on their rights. If you would like to read more about this Fair Play for Women is a great place to spend 10 minutes.

MrsFogi · 19/08/2018 23:02

Also well done to MN for not confining discussion of this topic to one area of the site only. As with any other topic people should post where they see fit and AIBU, Chat are real catch-all areas. If people can post about issues that could potentially fit in another topic on MN in these areas then anything that could be categorised as "feminist" should be allowed here just as it could be categorised as a legal issue given the proposed changes in the law. FWIW you don't have to consider yourself a feminist to be concerned about the proposed changes in the law and/or how women who ask questions are being treated/silenced/threatened.

busyboysmum · 19/08/2018 23:08

it was the censorship issues that first got my interest in this area OP.

I didn't actually realise perhaps naively until that point that comments on articles were moderated and any dissenting voices were removed.

Once I realised this I began to see this movement in a completely different light. The majority of people I speak to in real life are not on board at all however reading the comments on some articles you would be surprised to learn this. Presumably this is because anyone who disagrees with the partyline is censored and their comments are removed.

It is a very worrying infringement upon our freedom of speech especially when as you say our concerns are not bigoted they just come from living in the real world as a woman for a long time and realising that in some areas we do need sexually segregated spaces.

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 20/08/2018 01:06

No, YANBU. This is one of the most important threats faced by women and girls today, and far too many people are still completely oblivious to it.

I'm an old, leftie, lesbian feminist and have always been invested in equal rights for everyone. So when I saw news stories about places in the USA fighting to ban transwomen from using women's toilets I thought that the wish to exclude them was hateful, right wing bigotry, and that it was high time transsexuals were allowed to go to the toilet in peace without being shamed by religious loonies.

It wasn't until March of this year that I first had an inkling that something weird was going on. That was when I saw an article about a female trades unionist being attacked on a picket line on International Women's day, and followed a link to a video of the incident that showed enraged young people screaming with pure hatred into a woman's face "TERF! TERF! TERF! Fuck you TERF! Get her out of here, she's a TERF!" They were a mob, they were glorying in their ability to intimidate, and they were egging each other on in a manner that risked turning physically violent. womansplaceuk.org/footage-of-picket-line-attack/

I'd never heard the word TERF before so I googled it, and found a website called terfisaslur.com which left me reeling. Somehow, while I wasn't paying attention, the quiet transsexuals I knew from decades ago, people just wanting to go through life without being tormented, had been edged out and replaced by a bunch of aggressive yobbos, making ludicrous demands, denying basic biology, and conducting witch hunts against any women brave enough to challenge them. Interestingly, when men challenge transgenderism the response they get is much more muted, and the rape, mutilation or death threats which women are inundated with do not seem to get sent to gender critical males.

I felt betrayed to discover that Stonewall, a charity I had supported for decades, had thrown lesbians under the bus in favour of people who "may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois."

As a lesbian I was particularly stunned by the concept of the cotton ceiling, which states that being a friend to transsexuals is no longer enough. Now that transwomen ARE women so there is no longer any excuse for saying that as a lesbian you don't want to have sex with somebody on the grounds that they have penis. If the person with the penis identifies as a woman then they ARE a women, and that is a WOMAN'S penis, so as a lesbian you need to train yourself to welcome it, and learn how to pleasure it sexually. Otherwise you are a TERF and a vagina fetishist, not a REAL lesbian. If you think this is an exaggeration or a joke then, like me up until a few months ago, you have not been paying attention.

As a mother and grandmother, and a lesbian with a fondness for butches I was scared and heartsick to read of the exponential increase in masculine young girls demanding mastectomies and irreversible hormone treatments. Meanwhile the pharmaceutical companies rub their hands in glee at the prospect of all the cash they'll make from each person who will need to pay for hormones for the rest of their lives, and organisations pushing for the transitioning of children are rolling in funds. The NHS will be bankrupted by all the malpractice claims once the children currently being neutered are old enough to understand what has been done to them.

I'm not particularly sporty, but it struck me as incredibly unfair when
I realised that boys who identify as girls were being already being allowed to compete as girls in all girls sporting events, despite all the advantages their unmodified male bodies gave them.

All these changes had managed to slip by under my radar for years, and when I speak to friends and family about it I find that most of them are still completely oblivious.

Women's hard won rights to sex segregated spaces are under threat, and nobody is allowed to talk about it because the new gender creed insists that MtF transgender people are women, (in exactly the same way that black women are women, infertile women are women, and disabled women are women), because changing your gender also changes your sex, and therefore it is bigoted cruelty to want to exclude penis bearing women from the sex segregated spaces currently set aside solely for women and girls.

Anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman, even if they are only a woman on some days of the week, and a man on other days, like Philip/Pippa Bunce who has advised the government on this issue while feminists were excluded from the consultation. www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002 or Alex Drummond who advises Stonewall on trans equality and likes to widen the bandwidth of how to be a woman by wearing skirts, and queers gender by nurturing a full beard.

Transgenderists have targeted positions of influence and have been busy lobbying by stealth, behind closed doors to undermine laws that currently protect women and girls.

Any attempts to discuss what has been going on unleashes a torrent of hatred and misinformation. Academics and politicians are afraid to speak out publicly, for fear of loosing their positions.

Even Mumsnet, the company who dared to stand against the men's rights movement, and one of the last places where uppity women can discuss difficult subjects without being censored, have recently been intimidated into enforcing different rules for the "spirit of discussion" on the feminist board compared to the rest of the viper's nest.

I am shocked that it took me so long to notice what has been going on behind the scenes, and I want the issues debated openly.

MipMipMip · 20/08/2018 01:43

Beautifully written Squirrel.

I was much the same in that I of course supported trans people. Freedom for all! Why wouldn't I?

And then I learnt the bits you mentioned.

And that most trans people don't change genitalia (or use chemical castration - I'm not for unnecessary surgery). That many delight in having a penis and boobs, that there is a fetish called AGP that clinicians have known about for years and stopped people with it getting a Gender Reassignment Certificate and access to female spaces. (Look it up - you'll be horrified).

That believing you are in the wrong body is no longer classed as a medical problem and that some want to remove all talking therapies (I was called a bigot for suggesting that anyone who had gone though this was likely to have other problems like low self esteem after bullying etc).

That it is possible for a teenager to become a women's officer despite not having been born one or presenting as one for the vast majority of their life. That because they are trans the rules suddenly don't apply and things that would normally get a suspension such as targeting people on social media or begging for gifts are ignored. (Please note I am assuming that this is because they are trans - I certainly can't think of any other reason.)

That teenage girls are informed a male born person will be changing and showering with them as the person has decided they are female. It is made clear that anyone objecting will be considered a bigot.

That children are told not to tell parents if they discover they are sharing with someone of the opposite sex. And if they object they need to be reeducated.

That children are told they don't need to tell their parents that they are trans. That safeguarding rules are going out the window.

That children are being given off label drugs for which side effects are unknown but which have already been shown to lower IQ and leave some infertile.

That objecting makes you a bigot or a terf who should "die in a fire cis scum!".

That companies are "getting ahead of the law" and welcoming men into women's spaces, ignoring the fact that it makes it impossible for some women, women who have survived attacks or are of certain religions for example, to then use those services.

That public services are using gender not sex on equality legislation in defiance of the law. And that a councillor had to resign to get it reconsidered.

That meetings to discuss the law change are being targeted, including with bomb threats.

That women who question are having employers phoned up and their details spread. That women in certain sectors dare not say that they don't agree because they risk their jobs to do so.

That saying women don't have penises gets investigated by the police.

Every day I learn more. Every day I am horrified.

araiwa · 20/08/2018 01:46

Hidden?

There are umpteen threads daily about it

HavingALittleBabyToolshed · 20/08/2018 01:57

stealthsquirrelnutkin

One of the best posts I have ever read on this topic.

YouMustNotTellLies · 20/08/2018 02:00

YANBU, I have been aware of this for a number of years.

HarshingMyMellow · 20/08/2018 02:04

@stealthsquirrelnutkin excellent post.

PamsterWheel · 20/08/2018 02:19

Brilliant post Squirrel.

ToeToToe · 20/08/2018 02:22

YANBU - in my day to day life, very few people are aware of this going on at all.

I find the whole concept of a 'lady-penis' ridiculous, unscientific, and frankly triggering - as I'm sure a lot of victims of sexual assaults do.

On a personal level I'm really concerned about the erosion of women's rights, dignity, safety and privacy - in places like toilets, the changing rooms at my gym (where we all just strip off), hospital wards and so on- every female space.

But what's most concerning is the increased medical intervention for young children who are gender non-conforming - being encouraged along a life-long pathway of artificial hormones and gender re-assignment surgery (and infertility). This is a massive scandal just waiting to blow up.

partystress · 20/08/2018 02:23

Really pleased to see this being discussed more widely than on feminist chat. I put my head above the parapet on Twitter for the first time today. Politely and respectfully. Within minutes, I was being lumped in with Trump supporters and climate change deniers. Somehow those promoting these views have become hugely influential and I am very worried.

PamsterWheel · 20/08/2018 02:25

Squirrel, any theories as to why this is all happening, surely big pharma can't be behind it all? And why now? As you say, years ago no one batted an eyelid if a transwoman was in the ladies and now all this.

Is it just that the world is changing and this generation want a different way to live and we are dinosaurs? In 50 years time will we all truly be equal with no sexism, is this their dream?

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 20/08/2018 02:28
Blush
YouMustNotTellLies · 20/08/2018 02:28

It's about giving males more rights and reducing female rights.

DN4GeekinDerby · 20/08/2018 02:36

Have you gone through the government consultation for changes to the Gender Recognition Act and added your thoughts? I really recommend doing so. I found it interesting and informative though a bit irritating in places (particularly calling intersex 'sex variance', I had to be very careful to be diplomatic with that one).

They did seem to be bending over backwards throughout it to make sure people knew there weren't going to be changes to the Equality Act 2010 and that there are sex segregation rights even for those with GRA but as I wrote to them, it does seem many services and councils may not be informed or feel able to use them which needs seeing to.