To think that this massive women’s rights issue is going under the radar. (As it’s being hidden from them.)

[Carrrotsandcauliflower]

So AIBU to think that this massive women’s rights issue is going under the radar?
Excuse the length of this post ...A couple of days ago I was wasting time on Facebook. When I had a nose at the Lib Dem local home page in my area. They had a poster photographed in one post. The poster reads as follows; ( I can’t post a picture of the post.)

“WOMEN
Did you know that there are men,
Who have assaulted & raped women housed in U.K. women’s prisons because they claim to be women?
Did you know that groups are going into schools & telling kids they can ‘choose’ wether to be a boy or a girl & that these groups receive children in need and lottery funding??
Did you know that proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act will mean that a man is allowed into women’s spaces (changing rooms, sports teams, swimming sessions) just by declaring himself to be a woman?
Want to know more? CHECK OUT
@Man FRIDAY,@transgenderTrd @womansplaceuk @resisters @lillylilymainard @ sexfenderethics”

So...they have made the point that they think this is not acceptable. Also that is transphobic. They have asked anybody who sees the posters to remove them.
I commented that I didn’t think it was transphobic, because it contained no openly aggressive or hateful rhetoric. I then decided to follow the twitter link thingies and have a read to see what was all the fuss about. Still not finding anything phobic. I went back to the Facebook page and said- I’ve followed the links which (briefly) amongst other things talk about how women are worried about giving away their safe spaces to trans men who may be attracted to women depending on their nature. Like toilets changing rooms etc.
So there followed me being told I must be transphobic. Because I had that worry. That even just wondering about wether it was safe to allow trans men into women’s private spaces was transphobic. I wasn’t happy but I didn’t get abusive. I replied with a link to Jenifer James’s campaign. They hid my comments, and then named me. Then went on to say I was disgusting. Transphobic, and a bigot. Nobody had any idea what I had actually said as it was hidden. Luckily as I was the first to speak I was able to delete my first comment and stop myself being painted as some kind of head case.
A day or so later I decided now that I was feeling a bit freaked out at feeling I’d been shut down harshly to have a look on the feminism forum here. I have posted in the feminism activism area on the feminism forum. I can’t link as it breaks the forum rules. ( I think this is ok though.) go and have a look about a thread mentioning posters popping up around Bromley..

Great post StealthSquirrel

Kerala1 That is so wrong and so unfair.

This issue has really cemented the fact that no political party believes that women are full human beings with as much right to autonomy and self-direction as any man.

The most conservative parts of the political spectrum have always wanted women to be private property, owned by their father and then their husband after being "given away" in marriage, subservient to a man for the rest of their days (and in extreme cases, barely allowed to speak to other men).

But in the liberal parts of the political spectrum where women go to escape the notion of women as private property, women are to be public property that can be claimed by any man that wants them. Our problem as women, if you ask the left, is that we need to loosen up more, lose our inhibitions and repressions, get more freaky, get sex-positive kink polyamory into our lives.

Lesbians need to learn to accept dick, in the view of the man who considers women public property for men's use, and if they won't do it, we'll play word games to trick them into doing it. We'll use the female socialization we've subjected women to for their entire lives to make them grit their teeth and "validate" the femaleness of men, and we'll bring the wrath of an angry internet mob to anyone who shows evidence of being insufficiently gaslighted.

Both sides love to tell women what they ought (and oughtn't) to say about men. And lefty men, since they like to think of themselves as enlightened and woke, have moved on from "not all men are like that" to "ok, all men are like that, but ha, guess what, I'm not a man!"

Good.point sturdy. It is why I asked my friend to post. Tho God forbid anyone who tries to come after me. Just don't need the hassle.

Good point about linking to Facebook- I didn’t think of the risk. Thankyou.

Sorry, argumentative, I had to leave the chat and I've only just picked up your reply. I'm a bit puzzled that an argumentativefeminist would blank the feminist chat, but it's your prerogative if you find it depressing. Not wanting people to post outside that category still looks a bit like shutting down the discussion to me, as how would people like the OP who has just come across an issue they want to share, do so more widely? I also don't see why someone in your situation, who just doesn't like a topic and finds it depressing, wouldn't just ignore it when it pops up and contribute to a different conversation. Or start their own on something that interests them. It still feels like you don't want other people talking about this, rather than just not wanting to talk about it yourself.

Completely agree pywife. This topic has been on the outer edge of my awareness, I knew no detail other than finding the terms 'trans' and 'self ID' drifting past me rather more often than seemed warranted. I would not have read this in the feminist forum, I wouldn't have known it was there. Now I do know more, I'm concerned. Women have more than enough to deal with every day without giving free rein to an actively misogynistic bearded vanguard of space invaders. Petition signed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3342320-Is-it-true-that-in-the-UK-in-2018-no-political-party-believes-that-women-are-full-human-beings-with-as-much-right-to-autonomy-and-self-direction-as-any-man

If lesbians have to accept penis then so too do heterosexual men, right?

Let's see how they feel when they turn a woman down on finding she has a penis and then are hounded as a transphobe and a bigot. How will they feel when this happens to their sons?

I wonder if that happens, Pamster - I can't help feeling that this is all one big orchestration (I have no idea how!) to ensure that women have no autonomy at all, even over their own sexuality, whereas men are still allowed and able to make their own choice.

@PamsterWheel It won't happen because bullies don't go after people they think will fight back. i.e. men.

Pamster whenever this argument comes up, there is a collective "Fuck, no!" from the men, because it's fair enough to choose who you're attracted to, they say. Oddly, there is never the accompanying outcry of this being massively transphobic from any trans rights activists.

Double standards.

Women must move over for trans people and relax their boundaries. Men don't have to.

It’s all about women giving isn’t it into what a man wants. If they say no it’s acceptable if we say no we’re a transophobe. I never knew until I came different threads here how bad things are and I’m horrified.

It's great this thread is here. When I first came to mumsnet I didn't think I had anything clever enough to add to fwr so never went there. And this issue will affect all women and children, whatever their views and whether they know about it or not. What maddens me so much is how dishonest our political parties and major organisations are being; what is being done by stealth is to make anything previously single sex (ie hospital wards, prisons, changing rooms, sports, girl guides, loos) mixed sex but they won't ever say that because they know it wouldn't be popular. Single gender and mixed sex will be the new normal. As if the reason I want to exclude some people from places I'm vulnerable is that their hair isn't long enough or they don't wear dresses. I am worried about penises because they are used in rape, plus stronger physique and male pattern sexual and violent offending. That is related to natal sex. I don't care about anybody's chosen gender, that is their own business.

The problem isn't really trans people though. It's- as it always is - people abusing the situation. A true trans woman I would like to think would be mindful and respectful of what women may have gone through. That they would be aware of the need for women only spaces and respect that this may mean they have to back away or be very mindful of their situation when there so that they don't trigger any alarm or harm to other women. To be a true woman you need to be mindful of these issues - pushing your own agenda at the expense of everyone else is just not helpful or polite.

The need to respect trans people and the need for women's only spaces are positions that both need to be accommodated. Not sure how it's done but it won't be achieved by the current gate rhetoric that is thrown around. Unfortunately many of these trans activists have taken on one of the more unpleasant female traits - tearing each other town rather than building each other up.

It is frightening when you begin to realise the implications of this movement but, thanks to the courage of ordinary women a fightback has begun. In the last few days a group of transsexuals (as opposed to transgender) who are against changes being made to the GRA and who accept that people cannot change their sex have also added their voices to the debate: twitter.com/tsvoices/status/1031287877559377920
Difficult as it is I agree with the OP that this is a frightening attack on women's rights. For me it is probably the most significant human rights issue of this generation.

Thanks for the kind reception. I was a bit worried about sounding off on AIBU, having noticed that some of the posters here don't pull their punches, so it was a lovely surprise to tiptoe back in trepidation and find only warm and generous responses.

I've got so inspired reading your messages, and feeling that the tide of public opinion might really be starting to turn, that I finally got it together to fill out the on-line Government consultation on changes to the Gender Recognition Act. consult.education.gov.uk/government-equalities-office/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act/consultation/intro/

When I first downloaded the consultation document, after it went live, I was daunted by the 82 pages, and then, when I started to read the questions on the consultation they mostly seemed to be aimed at people who identify as transgender, so I got discouraged and laid it aside. It seems to have been designed to discourage ordinary women from contributing, and it has been gnawing away in the back of my mind that I needed to register my concerns or else my silence would be taken as compliance.

This time I used the simple guide that FairPlayforWomen have put together, fairplayforwomen.com/full_guide/ and went through the questions answering them using my own words and experiences, even the questions that seemed to be directed at transgender peopole but which clearly would impact women. After responding to each question I then read through the FPFW guidance on that section, to ensure that I hadn't missed any important points. It turned out that I often had forgotten something important, so the guide was very helpful. It also made me feel more comfortable responding to parts of the consultation that excluded women despite the proposed changes obviously having an impact on women.

Filling in an on-line questionnaire might not be a major contribution in the ongoing struggle in defence of women's hard won sex based rights, but it still feels really good to have dragged my tiny straw to the stack.

I hope other ordinary women who have had their eyes opened will also find the time to register their opinions. The government are holding a consultation that will impact our rights, and the rights of future generations, but they haven't asked for our input, they need to be told that we have heard the steamroller approaching and we have no intention of lying down in the road and waiting to find out if they have our best interests at heart.

stealthsquirrelnutkin Your first post on this thread made me cry. And I don’t cry easy.

I think once people realise what the push for self id is about then they start to get why this is such a bad idea. As things stand you can only get a gender recognition certificate if you have gender dysphoria (ie feelings of revulsion at own body esp sex organs). Many of the new trans brigade don’t have gender dysphoria so would never get a GRC. Instead their trans identity is linked to sexual fetish in dressing as a woman. They have no intention of having their penis removed and will continue to have sex with it. This is confirmed in Stonewalls ‘trans umbrella’ as mentioned earlier (includes cross dressers)
So instead the plan is to bring in self id - no gender dysphoria? - it will no longer matter and you will be able to access sex segregated areas without being challenged

I still do not understand why people in high places are backing this. They can't all be closet transgender?

How has this gained so much momentum in such a relatively short space of time?

I understand the consequences of self ID but I do not understand how such a small percentage of people have got so many people running scared in opposing it.

Denying biology? It's all so 'woo'. I want to be a unicorn but wearing a horn on my head and a tail in my tush doesn't make me one.

Are women allowed to describe themselves as men if they want to and enter men's toilets and changing rooms?.

Vicky1990 They would be-
I haven’t heard anything about this either but I don’t think it would be gone about in the same bullying insistant kind of way from that side of the arguement.

Men's toilets are so gross, I'd rather wet myself than face the pissy dripped floor and stench of the urinals.

The AMOUNT if men I see leaving loos doing their flies up #nohandwashingherethen #boak

Anyway I digress

Pamster. The why question really bugs me too. There is ignorance certainly, and a desire to appear progressive (despite even a small amount of thought revealing that the denial of biology and reinforcement of stereotypes is massively regressive). But there must be more to it than that for all the bonkersness to have gained traction so quickly and firmly, especially among, eg, Tory MPs. Pharma companies stand to benefit, but I can't work out who else.

Pamster this might sound nuts, but despite all the progress women have made to be included in politics, high powered jobs, decision and policy makers, etc, I feel men as a class still hate do not like women as a class, and this is the only way they are now allowed to show that.

It is no longer politically correct for people to say they think women are inferior (I include women here, because sadly some women still think this), but this movement gives them licence to voice their truest feelings and hide behind the fact that if TWAW then having TW in women’s places, shortlist’s, etc, they can still say ‘see, we allow women’.

I hope that makes some kind of sense, I am no where near the level of articulation usually expressed on these threads, but I am learning.

*Vicky - yes - look up the ManFriday movement. manfridayuk.org/