Manafort Destiny? Trump continued

[PerkingFaintly]

Where will the charges against Manafort lead? Whose shredders are overheating today? And most importantly, when will the Tweetstorm-from-the-loo start?

Previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3061258-FMOTUS-F-ing-Moron-of-the-United-States-Trump-thread-continued?pg=1

[Gumpendorf]

Thanks Perking . Like the title.

Charges against Manafort:
Count One: Conspiracy against the United States

The full indictment can be downloaded here www.justice.gov/file/1007271/download

[BoreOfWhabylon]

Oh, happy day!

[lionheart]

Thanks Perking--love the title.

Had to go out and dawdle because the wait was too much.

31 pages of indictment.

[catgirl1976]

Turning myself in

[Natsku]

Nice title Perking

[BoreOfWhabylon]

Radio 4 World at One doing good analysis now.

[TheHeraldOfAndraste]

Bigly, yuge placemark.

[cozietoesie]

Thanks, Perking.

[lionheart]

catgirl

www.justice.gov/file/1007271/download

[NameChangeFamousFolk]

Where's this going? Will Manafort cough up that Trump's in it up to his neck and make a deal?

Does anyone think that Trump will try to fire Mueller? I know this is fraught path, but this IS Trump we're talking about.

Lovely stuff anyway.

[lionheart]

Manafort will try to save himself,

Who are the others involved in this 'conspiracy'?

[PerkingFaintly]

From the Indictment:

1. Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., (MANAFORT) and RICHARD W. GATES III (GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of the Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovich was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia). MANAFORT and GATES generated tens of millions of dollars in income as a result of their Ukraine work. In order to hide Ukraine payments from United States authorities, from approximately 2006 through at least 2016, MANAFORT and GATES laundered the money through scores of United States and foreign corporations, partnerships, and bank accounts.

2. In furtherance of the scheme, MANAFORT and GATES funneled millions of dollars in payments into foreign nominee companies and bank accounts, opened by them and their accomplices in nominee names and in various foreign countries, including Cyprus, Saint Vincent & the Grenadines (Grenadines), and the Seychelles. MANAFORT and GATES hid the existence of the foreign companies and bank accounts, falsely and repeatedly reporting to their tax preparers and to the United States that they had no foreign bank accounts.

3. In furtherance of the scheme, MANAFORT and GATES concealed from the United States their work as agents of, and millions of dollars in payments from, Ukraine and its political parties and leaders. Because MANAFORT and GATES, among other things, directed a campaign to lobby United States officials on behalf of the Government of Ukraine, the President of Ukraine,and Ukrainian political parties, they were required by law to report to the United States their work and fees. MANAFORT and GATES did not do so...

[lionheart]

George Takei‏Verified account @GeorgeTakei 3m3 minutes ago
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There are 12 charges. It rather evokes a Xmas carol: “On the first day of charges, Mueller gave to me: Manafort on treas’nous conspiracy!”

[PerkingFaintly]

Of course, innocent until proven guilty...

[lionheart]

'Today has zero to do with the White House' (Trumpery source).

[Dunlurking]

Thanks for the new thread. Looking forward to an afternoon read of the indictment.

[Roussette]

Thank you Perking!

[cozietoesie]

I take it that there will be bail hearings?

[lionheart]

shareblue.com/kellyanne-conway-admits-trump-is-pressuring-feds-to-retaliate-against-hillary-clinton/#.WfYpNCpGriQ.twitter

[PlectrumElectrum]

Bigly place mark.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Fascinating!
A pity I have to resume work in a few minutes. They are some pretty mega serious charges!

[lionheart]

Thread in progress.

Renato Mariotti‏Verified account
@renato_mariotti
Following Following @renato_mariotti
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THREAD: My very preliminary / initial thoughts on the indictment of Paul Manafort and Richard Gates.

[lionheart]

Good.

www.politico.com/story/2017/08/30/manafort-mueller-probe-attorney-general-242191

[RedToothBrush]

Indictment cover period 2006 to 2016. So does that include the campaign period or not?

[PainInTheEerie]

Thanks perking!

Seth Abramson
@SethAbramson
(THREAD) Paul Manafort and Rick Gates are now indicted. This thread analyzes legal and political aspects of their indictment and surrender.
1/ Draw no conclusion from the two being allowed to surrender rather than being arrested at home/work. It often happens in nonviolent cases.
2/ Here are the charges (via CNN):

The Special Counsel announced that Paul Manafort and Richard Gates have been indicted by a federal grand jury. The 12-count indictment is on "conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts."

The charges do not cover any activities related to the campaign, though superceding indictments remain possible.

Release from Special Counsel:

Paul J. Manafort, Jr., 68, of Alexandria, Va., and Richard W. Gates III, 45, of Richmond, Va., have been indicted by a federal grand jury on Oct. 27, 2017, in the District of Columbia. The indictment contains 12 counts: conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts.

3/ CNN also reports the timing of the indictment might have been influenced by the statute of limitations on certain tax crimes running out.
4/ America is getting an education in how prosecutions work: prosecutors charge everything they possibly can that they think they can prove.
5/ That doesn't mean new charges can't be added on these men later, but we can assume this is everything Mueller thinks he can prove now.
6/ Don't take anything from the fact that the charges do not immediately, on their face, implicate Trump or campaign collusion with Russia.
7/ In an investigation of this size and scope, the early charges are mostly intended to compel defendants to cooperate with investigators.
8/ No one believes Paul Manafort is the final target of the Russia probe, nor even necessarily that these are all the charges he could face.
9/ But these are the charges Mueller has now, and he may have investigated them first because they're—relatively speaking—easier to prove.
10/ To be clear, financial crimes are not easy to prove. But if you can get the records you need, you can proceed. Collusion is testimonial.
11/ What that means is that the evidence most likely to prove a Trump-Russia conspiracy involves words said between persons, not documents.
12/ Because words often have no printed record, you tackle documentable (e.g. financial) crimes first, and then the sexier testimonial ones.
13/ Registration, false statements, and failure to file charges are "easy" to prove assuming basic underlying facts and some key documents.
14/ Just so, assuming access to foreign bank records and perhaps a "black" ledger or two, conspiracy to launder money is less testimonial.
15/ So a prosecutor in this situation would follow documented crimes—i.e. less testimonial—in order to compel a defendant to new testimony.
16/ That Mueller is able to start with the President's Campaign Manager—rather than some peon—means he is that much closer to getting Trump.
17/ We mustn't forget that in a case in which evidence is scarce a prosecutor would have to start much lower on the chain than Manafort.
18/ A big question today is whether the two men will be given a bail they can afford—if not they'll sit in federal lockup until their trial.
19/ If Mueller wants them to squawk, it is desperately important he secure a bail on both men that they cannot afford—lockup loosens lips.
20/ With financial crimes, a prosecutor can often force defendants to make a showing that any money they put up for bail wasn't ill-gotten.
21/ Given how much ill-gotten money we believe that Paul Manafort—and possibly Rick Gates—received, that could be a tough showing for them.
22/ It's even harder for Manafort, as he worked for Trump "for free"—so it's not clear he can prove a legitimate source of recent income.
23/ While we don't have the details of the "Conspiracy Against the United States" charge, it's listed first and will be most key for bail.