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Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

(956 Posts)
fidel1ne Wed 27-Jan-16 12:26:34

Also a plug for the FB group grin

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

BeyondBootcampsAgain Wed 27-Jan-16 13:10:12

Link to first thread...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a2555455-To-think-that-this-is-the-end-of-womens-athletics?msgid=58922563#58922563

Link to the IOC decision...
www.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

To summarise...

- IOC has ruled that transwomen competitors now face fewer restrictions to take part in female olympics. Previously hormone therapy for two years plus proof of genital surgery was required. Now they simply have to prove testosterone levels of under 10nmol/L for one year. Transmen face no restrictions at all because they dont have a cat in hells chance

- Usual male testosterone levels are between 9nmol/L and 30nmol/L. Female is 0.7nmol/L and 3.8nmol/L

- Male skeletal structure and type of musculature is not affected by hormones. A female pelvis makes evolutionary sacrifices to be able to carry and birth children, it is larger and tilted. A males narrower pelvis is better adapted for running. Males tend to have longer bones with a higher density, and have a larger rib cage. While muscle density can be lowed with hormone therapy (likened 'to a muscular female'), males have differently placed tendon attachments

- Males have a larger heart and lungs with a greater maximum capacity

- Females also have periods to work with, and the struggle that many have returning to athletics after pregnancy

I think that is it?

BeyondBootcampsAgain Wed 27-Jan-16 13:12:51

Oops - I left out male/female socialisation differences and poor funding of female sport

Oh and the picture

QueenStromba Wed 27-Jan-16 16:23:10

And here's the video of male MMA fighter Fallon Fox beating the crap out of Tamikka Brents.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX3f3KnRvAk

Maryz Wed 27-Jan-16 16:38:29

Just place marking.

The Iranian women's football team probably deserves a mention too.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/11903290/Eight-of-Irans-womens-football-team-are-men.html

Of course this has been denied - using the argument that they aren't actually men, they are women who haven't fully transitioned yet.

I worry that in countries such as Iran where being gay is illegal but being trans is accepted, that young gay men will be forced into transitioning.

Maryz Wed 27-Jan-16 16:40:54

This link is worth posting.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12147825

Showing that there are differences between male and female muscles and skeletons well before puberty.

BeyondBootcampsAgain Wed 27-Jan-16 16:55:00

I found this bit of that paper very interesting, maryz...

"The reasons for the striking sexual dimorphism in muscle, fat, and bone volume in prepubertal children are unknown. Considerable evidence indicates, however, that during the first months of life the gonads secrete sex steroids (48–50), and there is an increase in leptin (51) and free insulin-like growth factor I bioavailability (52). The precise function of this hormonal surge is yet to be determined. However, as many of the physical changes during the pubertal transition (such as the accelerated growth and the dimorphic increases in fat, muscle, and bone mass) are mediated, at least in part, through sex steroids, leptin, and insulin-like growth factor I, it is reasonable to suppose that there is a similar relationship between these regulators and the increases in fat and musculoskeletal development during infancy."

So, re those who think the new guidelines are fair if children have puberty blockers early. Do you think they'll be supporting the idea to have babies on them from birth?!

CoteDAzur Wed 27-Jan-16 20:02:28

Beyond & others - Just for info:

Men have about 10-20% greater bone density than women.

Men have on average 36% greater muscle mass than women.

Men tend to have approximately 40% greater upper body strength and 20-30% greater lower body strength than women.

Men have larger lungs and greater lung volume, which leads to about 50% greater lung volume per unit of body mass than a woman of the same size

Men have physically larger hearts (about 10-15%) than women, and so have greater cardiac output leading to greater endurance.

Men have about a 10% higher erythrocyte count and a higher hemoglobin level, which leads to a higher oxygen-carrying capacity, which also leads to a higher endurance

Men produce more erythropoietin than women and also do so at a faster rate, leading to faster production of erythrocytes at altitudes

Men produce more clotting factors and have a higher platelet count, meaning that they heal faster from wounds inflicted during sports.

Source: any physiology textbook.

Taking estrogen downplays a few of these advantages but it doesn't change the person's bone size, lung size, heart size, erythrocyte, hemoglobin, or platelet count, or the amount of muscle mass that the person had before taking the hormones.

The argument that estrogen makes the person weaker is false because we are talking about an athlete who is training, right? So it isn't as if the muscle that they already have is going to atrophy - the estrogen is just going to make it less easy for them to build new muscle as rapidly.

(The author of this post is a scientist in a related field.)

BeyondBootcampsAgain Wed 27-Jan-16 20:12:51

Fab, thank you cote!

GrouchyKiwi Wed 27-Jan-16 22:13:52

Great info, Cote.

I've been lurking on the other thread, and have joined the Facebook group (to lurk...) Asked a staunchly feminist friend what she thought about it the other day and she thinks it's a great move on the IOC's part, which surprised me quite a lot.

DH and I have two young daughters, and a third child on the way. The impact this could have on them is worrying.

WombOfOnesOwn Wed 27-Jan-16 22:17:04

Even XY intersex people with CAIS who are women to every outward appearance are significantly taller than non-intersex women, which takes away from the notion that it's just testosterone levels that cause the differentials between men and women.

TheWomanInTheWall Thu 28-Jan-16 08:29:26

Thanks, Cote, all interesting.

FreshwaterSelkie Thu 28-Jan-16 09:01:27

That's a great summary, thanks cote.

scalliondays Thu 28-Jan-16 09:32:34

Grouchy kiwi - did your friend say why she supported the INC decision?
I can't think why anyone other than mens rights activists and those hoping to benefit from ousting women would think this is a good idea.

iPost Thu 28-Jan-16 09:35:37

Has the Facebook group been suspended ? because I am getting a message saying "content not available at this time"

BeyondBootcampsAgain Thu 28-Jan-16 09:37:30

I think its had its privacy settings changed, its def still there. Will have a look for you now...

iPost Thu 28-Jan-16 09:40:10

Screen shot, basically says impossible to view content at this time, may be temp. down, out of date or you don't have authorisation.

BeyondBootcampsAgain Thu 28-Jan-16 09:46:04

Spot the transwoman, who is at "no advantage" according to the ioc...

BeyondBootcampsAgain Thu 28-Jan-16 09:50:07

Published in todays Times, by Janice Turner

GrouchyKiwi Thu 28-Jan-16 10:05:05

scallion Honestly, I'm not sure she got much beyond "Yay, inclusivity and equality". It was just on Twitter, and I think if we'd had the conversation in person it might have been different.

MaidOfStars Thu 28-Jan-16 10:06:32

Place marking.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest Thu 28-Jan-16 10:36:27

Adding on to Cote's fantastic post above, men having greater bone density also means that they have thicker skulls so are less likely to suffer severe brain injury from a head trauma of equal strength.

This is particularly important when you consider the dreadful injuries Fallon Fox inflicted on Tamikka Brents and the fact that the same blows landing on a male skull, whilst still dangerous, would be less likely to have caused such severe damage.

Also, if Fallon Fox had been fighting against an opponent with comparable bone density, reach, height, muscle mass, joint movement etc, I highly doubt "she" would have been half as successful as landing the blows (which may explain why she did so poorly in the male competition before switching over...)

ShortcutButton Thu 28-Jan-16 10:46:01

I'm really distracted by trying to match up people in the FB group with their MN usernames! grin

fidel1ne Thu 28-Jan-16 10:47:44

<hides from Shortcut>

fidel1ne Thu 28-Jan-16 10:49:53

Yes the FB group has now been set to secret so you need to be added by an admin or an existing member.

If existing members could raise their hands please so posters know who to PM for an add that would be great smile

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