My boss reprimanded me and some of my other coworkers for avoiding a smelly coworker.

[joel666]

I am a 34 year old male and i work as a web developer. I am fairly good at it my work and get along with most other coworkers.

But there is this one coworker that started 2 months ago. I will refer to him as tom.

Tom is good at his job but there is problem with him.

Ever since i met him for the first time, he always had a strong stench to him. His odor is a mix of weed and unwashed body odor and on top of that, his breath smells really bad.

But i always tried being polite but me and some of my other coworkers who also noticed how bad he smells avoid him but we tried not to be rude about it.

For examples. When tom would sit near us, my coworkers and me would tell each other "why don't we go seat over there. This table is a lot cleaner. Why don't we use this computer instead. This one is kinda slow. When you come back from the bathroom, join us on that other table next to the window.

And when we would be in the lunch break room, we would stand there, wait and see where tom would sit and we would make sure not to sit next to him.

But on the bad luck that he would sit right in front of us, i would cover my nose with my hand. And my other coworkers would do the same.

But again we try not to show our disgusts. We don't gag or make any disgusted facial expressions.

But just a week ago, our bosse called me into his office and he tells me that tom feels excluded and me and the other coworkers are creating a toxic work environment and my clique attitude will nog be tolerated.

I admitted to my boss why we avoid him. I told him that i cannot stand the stench coming off tom.

My boss argued and said this is disrespectful and he could very well have a health condition that causes him to smell unpleasant.

My other coworkers later told me that they also got reprimanded.

How would you deal with this ? Health or not, i cannot stand smelly people. I try not to be rude but when someone smells bad my first instinct is to avoid them.

Then you would very likely find yourself embroiled in an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal or possibly constructive dismissal citing your refusal to act on the problem. And it would likely be a slam dunk for the sacked employee/s, because the law requires you to consider all of your employees, not just the one causing the issue.

BO is unfortunate but sort of manageable to deal with imo, weed though stinks and it's not unreasonable for people to take issue with being forced to smell it all day. And yes, I know some people use it to manage their condition and whatever else, but this guy is just as likely to be a lazy slob than have a medical condition. Even if he does, as has been said there are ways to manage it rather than simply expect everyone else to deal with it.

So the only thing that your employer and colleagues can do then is to assume that you're just a soap-dodger and act accordingly.

If somebody makes the working conditions intolerable and even sick-inducing for their colleagues, it isn't just their prerogative to leave people guessing the reason whilst the others are left gagging all day.

“Causing the issue” unintentionally or someone intentionally causing issues.

I remain happy with which way I fall on that.

I agree that none of you have handled this well.

@joel666 Why haven't you asked your manager to have a word with him? It is their job. It isn't a nice thing to tackle but is part of their job description.

Are we really saying that somebody could do pretty much whatever they liked at work, however offensive or intolerable, and the management and their colleagues would just have to assume they might have a disability or medical condition that causes it - which they prefer not to disclose - and just merrily put up with it?

We aren't all saying that. But some do appear to be arguing such a position. Fuck knows why.

It wasn’t ‘aimed’ at you, it was directed at you. Your grasp of employment law is concerning if you’re an employer. Your duty is to all your employees, not just the disabled person, and if you are prioritising them to the detriment of the others then you have a problem.

In this instance, it’s an employee who smells to the point where it affects others who are in contact with them. There is no ‘moral obligation’ for other employees to put up with this, and no legal basis on which to dismiss them for not doing so. That’s unfair dismissal. If an employee resigns because they find the workplace is intolerable because of it, that’s potentially constructive dismissal. As an employer, you have a legal duty to seek reasonable adjustment for the disabled employee. If none can genuinely be found, then your obligation is to the wellbeing of the staff working with that person, who are subjected to the ongoing problems he’s causing. Morality doesn’t come into it.

Where did the assumption that Tom is disabled come from? I'm baffled that suddenly he's untouchable, because he stinks so much that he must be disabled.

That's quite a leap. Only Tom's boss knows the facts (if it has been disclosed). Where did that come from? Or is it just being used as an example to demonstrate employment law and give a few posters a chance to air their social justice warrior flags?

No. That’s not what we’re saying - or at least not what those of us familiar with employment law and the Equality Act are saying. No-one should be assuming anything. If the person causing the problem doesn’t declare a disability as the cause, then they can be disciplined just as any other employee would be. But, if when challenged about the behaviour they declare a health condition which qualifies as a disability under the Act, and claim that disability as the cause of the behaviour, there is then an obligation to make reasonable adjustment to try to resolve the issue. Reasonable adjustment can’t always be made, and if it’s the case that reasonable attempt at a solution has genuinely been made and failed, it’s not illegal to terminate the disabled persons’ employment.

There are several conditions that would cause a person to smell in this way, so no it’s not a leap. Some of them are detailed by actual sufferers upthread. OP says that the manager hinted at disability after speaking to Tom, and that’s what sparked the debate.

And why would you think those advocating for Tom are social justice warriors ? If he does have a qualifying disability as the root cause of the smell, then he has rights which are enshrined in law, and is entitled to reasonable adjustment. If this can’t be found, then sadly, he may lose his job. That’s how it works.

And it should be noted that the government plans to force severely disabled people off benefits and into work. Many of them are so severely disabled that they wouldn’t previously have been expected to work. There are going to be many more similar scenarios up for discussion as a result.

That’s fine - if you’d like to focus exclusively on the legalities of causes for dismissal, would you like to discuss your view on OPs behaviour.

He is entitled to not like his working environment, and his colleagues. Is he entitled to treat them the way he has as a result of that?

If that behaviour continued, which is the point I continue to make, that would be entirely unacceptable and make the working environment toxic.

How much grounds for constructive dismissal do you have if actually it’s evident and can be proven that you’ve been a discriminative bully?

In my case certainly - it’s never assumed.

I disclose my condition at point of employment, incase of any issues later. When asked about it in previous employment, or when it’s been raised as an issue later, I always either give consent to share it with colleagues, or do so myself.

I’ve been in the role I am now for five years, and it’s actually never come up following the initial conversation I had, which was more along the lines of “you may notice this, this is why, this is what I do about it” and my colleagues can see the steps I take to mitigate the issue.

And what has any of that got to do with the co-workers who won't sit with him? Nothing. You're all focused on Tom and not the other employees. They matter too and don't have to sit next to Tom.

Also I'm still waiting to hear what disability makes one stink of weed, and why thats more likely than him just smoking a lot of weed. **

If you read my other posts above, you’ll find l already have discussed my view on OP’s behaviour and that of other co-workers, and it’s totally unacceptable. As soon as the problem was identified it should have been reported to the manager to deal with, but instead they behaved like children and were surprised when this resulted in Tom making a perfectly legitimate complaint.

And this is why morality is irrelevant here. The fate of disabled people in the workplace (or anywhere else for that matter) should not be down to the whim of whether something is or isn’t a moral concern. That’s why, thankfully these rights are now enshrined in law.

But that doesn’t mean that you can subject other employees to a difficult workplace environment in the name of reducing the impact on the disabled person. The impact on the other employees has to be considered. That’s what reasonable adjustment is for, and it can’t always be achieved, so sadly disabled people sometimes do lose their jobs if they can’t be accommodated. But they have the protection of the law to ensure that they are treated fairly.

Once the disability has been identified, and any reasonable adjustment agreed and put into practice, any further similar behaviour from other employees would be considered discriminatory and subject to disciplinary procedures.

In the event that no reasonable adjustment could be made and the disabled employee let go, if they then referred to employment tribunal of course the behaviour of OP and colleagues would be factored in, but it would be up to the tribunal to decide if this was discriminatory in light of the fact that the manager was allowing the situation to continue, and they had no other recourse but to move away from Tom. Similarly, if OP or other colleagues brought cases for unfair/constructive dismissal, the tribunal would look at all the facts, but the onus would mainly be on the employer to explain why they hadn’t resolved the issue, or at least tried to, for the benefit of all concerned.

The above assumes that the smell is owing to disability. If it’s not, then it’s a disciplinary matter in which, again, the employer has an obligation to consider everyone involved. They cannot expect other employees to put up and shut up with a situation directly affecting their workplace to such an extent.

I missed that the boss had "hinted" at there being a disability. Now it makes sense why that's been focused on. My bad.

Is it a disability like a condition a pp states they have with sweating (and which is being handled very considerately, from what I've read), or is it a SEN type disability?

If it's the latter, then I'd suggest that the "reasonable adjustment" is the boss telling them, on a daily basis if necessary till the message gets through, to go home right now and shower, wash their hair and change all their clothes before coming back to work.

It's JANUARY. Can you imagine the smell in summer if this isn't sorted?

As to why I mentioned the social justice warrior stuff, it just seems that in this case, there's a really unpleasant situation that the others (and yes, they've handled it TERRIBLY and deserve the disciplinary) are being told, by their boss and some on here, that they just have to suck it up, because the unpleasant situation may, or may not, be caused by a disability.

Without knowing there is actually a disability factor involved, it's just a thought exercise. What disability? There's a vast gulf between just not washing for one set of reasons, and having a condition that makes the body, hair or breath smell no matter how often you shower.

We're all just guessing of course, and it sounds like the OP doesn't know the "reason" either. I would exercise my right to not spend more time than I'm obligated to with a person who smelled so unpleasant that I could not breathe through my nose in their presence. Who would? Genuine question.

If you read my other posts you’ll see l’m not ‘focused on Tom’ but simply stating the facts and law as it stands. If he has a disability which causes the smell then the employer has a duty to make reasonable adjustment to accommodate him in the workplace. If the employer genuinely cannot make reasonable adjustment for the benefit of Tom and his co workers so that the situation is resolved for everyone, then it’s perfectly legal to let Tom go. Similarly, if it’s not down to disability, then it’s disciplinary and if, after procedures have been invoked and warnings given, the situation does not improve, then Tom can legitimately be sacked.

And if you scroll upthread you’ll find posters who describe living with disability which causes smell - including weed. I was a disability outreach worker for many years and came across quite a few conditions which caused various smells. All resulted in the same kind of behaviour in the workplace from other colleagues, and very few were able to be resolved via reasonable adjustment unless working from home was an option.

If it's the latter, then I'd suggest that the "reasonable adjustment" is the boss telling them, on a daily basis if necessary till the message gets through, to go home right now and shower, wash their hair and change all their clothes before coming back to work.

This could and probably would be considered discriminatory. Your use of the phrase. ‘Til the message gets through’ suggests you have no understanding of SEN. Disabled people have a right to be treated sensitively and with respect. This suggestion as ‘reasonable adjustment’ is neither.

There was no hint of a disability in the op that I can find

why won’t folks talk directly to the person, what the hell is this gently telling him or getting the boss to do it gently crap.

Tom knows unless he can’t smell nowt. You don’t have to shower daily unless y8r really sweaty.

if weed surely that’s a sackable offence unless the boss partakes himself.

plus you can’t make employees like each other or even sit together either and it isn’t bullying ffs

Honestly it sounds like everyone is at fault here!

It's not acceptable to come to work stinking of BO, dirty clothes and weed. You are definitely behaving like bullies, and your manager has done a crap job of dealing with the issue.

You shouldn't have to work with someone who stinks but you have dealt with it really badly. You should have gone to your manager first and told them about the problem. Then the manager should have spoken to your colleague and made a plan to deal with it.

I'm not even sure this thread is real to be honest.

I don't think you are being unreasonable. I'd avoid him too. If he smells of weed and unwashed laundry then he can do something about it.

The manager needs to do something.

I might be tempted to speak to him directly but I think it might be a lose lose situation 😕

I'd consider it to be educating them actually.

The boss is teaching them the standards expected in the workplace the boss runs. The lesson is repeated until it is learned, or if learning is something the individual is either incapable of or refuses to do, then dismissal is the result, I'd imagine.

How on earth does asking an individual to meet and keep the standards expected in the workplace become discrimination?

If the issue is due to SENd, then it’s not the “educating” them that’s the issue - it’s the method of delivery.

It’s a sensitive issue and should be handled sensitively. As ever, there’s no need to be rude to people.

The method of delivery.....Which is????

I have a ASD nephew and truly, he responds far better to honesty and rules than anything else. He thrives on knowing exactly what is expected of him and how to achieve it. He loves the rules etc and feels safe knowing that if he follows them, he's going to be okay. He learned from his parents that he had to shower daily in order to be socially acceptable in terms of odour. He was sent back upstairs to shower and change until he did it automatically. He learned that at the same time as his peers, so late primary school, early teens, when the hormones kick in and the ripeness builds. I'm pretty sure most parents have to teach their kids these things as they mature.

As you seem to be in the HR business (unless I've got you mixed up with someone else), I'd really appreciate you being very clear about how exactly you personally would tackle this issue with an adult in the workplace.

How would you deal with it? Forget the awful behaviour of the others, focus on our odoriferous individual. How would this situation be sorted for him?

I don’t work in the HR business - I’m a people manager, with a HR department that I’d seek advice from if needed. They’re the ones with the legal insight, I’d be approaching it from a people led perspective and checking I was within the law, if in doubt. @Rosscameasdoody appears to be your best bet for HR specific advice.

I’ve got an autistic stepson. He is currently only 8, but I can tell you that if he was sent home from work every day and humiliated “until the message got through,” I’d be furious and think he was being mistreated.

Depends on the reason.

Medical issue, disability or SENd; discuss with the individual, involve medical professionals if necessary including their own GP/ongoing treatment advice and OH. Expect those steps are followed, and monitor it. If they are and the rest of the team are treating them poorly when best efforts are being made - I’ve got a morale and team problem, that for me indicates my staff lack understanding and empathy. Which is a no for me. Under no circumstances would I dismiss a capable employee as a direct result of their disability or need. It may be legal, as someone has mentioned previously, but I wouldn't do it.

Self caused hygiene issue; bring up and discuss with employee, expect changes to be made, monitor if that happens, disciplinary and dismissal if not. Still however expect my team to not bully them, because I don’t tolerate it regardless of reason.

IMO there’s a huge difference between choosing to stink, and just having to live your life stinky, and I’d differentiate my responses based on which it was.