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Original poster

Said something 'offensive' about sex/gender at work, meeting on Wednesday. Hand hold and advice needed.

510 replies

Grubble · 03/04/2023 11:46

I've NC and I'm going to change some minor details to avoid outing.

I hope this is the right place to post - I'm after help about the work/employment issues I'm facing, rather than anything to do with the sex/gender debate.

Here goes:
I do MMA and am 'senior level'. The gym I train at is mostly men. Men and women don't spar together. There are only two other 'senior' women at my gym that I can spar with. If we find a class that two of us will be at, we'll both agree to definitely get to that class so we get chance to spar.

Last week, I declined an evening event at work because I'd booked a sparring session with one of these women.

A colleague asked me why I wasn't going to the event. I explained. As I was explaining I said "Obviously men and women don't spar with each other so when there's a chance for me to spar with one of the senior women, I take it".

A couple of other colleagues were standing around and heard the conversation. One of them said "Why obviously?" and I answered - men are bigger, men are heavier, men's bodies are shaped/composed differently, there's lots of holding/grabbing, men can't fully throw themselves into sparring with women so its a bit of a waste of time for them, and ultimately its just gym policy anyway.

Today I've received an email from HR asking me to attend a meeting on Wednesday about 'offensive comments' I made last week. I've followed HR up this morning and they've told me that my 'offensive comments' were about my explanation of men/women not sparring with each other.

The lady in HR said its likely to be a informal chat to identify why my comments were offensive and to 'find a way through' (her exact words). She said it didn't look like there'd be any question of formal disciplinary action.

So, basically I've been summoned to a bollocking.

I've worked here 9 years and have an impeccable record. I've never been told off or had any sort of HR intervention before. So I'm not sure what to do or what to expect. I'm not in a union.

I wonder if anyone has any advice on the situation. What should I expect on Wednesday? How should I handle it? I'm completely clueless. Thank you!

TLDR: Been summoned for a bollocking on Wednesday because I told colleagues why men/women don't spar together at my MMA gym. What should I do?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
QuintanaRoo · 04/04/2023 13:45

intotalfreefall · 04/04/2023 11:56

I hope all goes well tomorrow, @Grubble.

FWIW, I am very supportive of transpeople living their best lives and I do recognise transwomen as women on a daily basis. I am not GC like you.

However, when it comes to sport, I also recognise that from a safety POV, it may not be possible for transpeople to compete with people who identify with their birth gender and that transpeople may need their own category or two.

I am supportive of equity, which is not always the same thing as equality. In an ideal world, transwomen would get to do all the same things as women who identified with their gender from birth, but this can't be at the expense of keeping everyone physically safe. We're talking MMA - we can't just consider everyone's feelings. We have to do a risk assessment, and the science is not supportive of transwomen being on an even field when it comes to fighting with cis women.

We clearly have very different opinions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with you that it would likely be unsafe for you to spar with a transwoman who had undergone puberty as a male. I hope that gives you a bit of comfort that people on the other side of the fence can see this is quite mad, and hopefully this is just a pointless box ticking HR exercise where you clarify what was said, and nothing actually happens because you didn't do anything wrong.

This is exactly my viewpoint, however I would say that's gender critical. And a trans person would call me (and you) a TERF for thinking that.

piedbeauty · 04/04/2023 13:46

HectorPlasm · 03/04/2023 22:52

Always remember the mantra:

  • Those that can do
  • Those that can't teach
  • Those that are too shit to teach go into HR

That's a really shit saying. But you probably know that.

Codlingmoths · 04/04/2023 13:50

Thanks @Foreversearch it was a few years ago, but policy is policy and the illustrative examples that don’t say anything about only for internal staff are
therefore for everyone, that’s very black and white. I just went over their heads and got my plan approved. HR can’t just say wrong bullshit and expect people to listen although they certainly thought they could.

NemoandDoris · 04/04/2023 14:03

Safety is the name of the game here and it has to be accepted that female sexed bodies are different to male sex. Not just sport. Only now is Volvo starting to use crash test dummies which represent the female body. Current ones are male or a small child. They have recognised that, in the same car, females are more likely to be injured as all the safety design is tailored to the male body.

TheCentreSlide · 04/04/2023 14:23

I do think that you should consider a counter complaint for bullying/harassment. This complaint is designed to make you feel undermined and unsafe in your company.

intotalfreefall · 04/04/2023 14:40

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon @QuintanaRoo I don't identify with GC because I have no problem with transwomen being in female spaces. I think life as a woman is bloody hard - if someone choose to lives as a woman, I will welcome her with open arms, as she won't have done that lightly. (Seriously, who would choose this life if they didn't have to? It's a man's world still.) I don't mind transwomen using the same toilets as me - if they want to join in with the conversations and preening that only take place in ladies toilets, I'm all for it.

But when it comes to something like MMA, equity doesn't mean treating transwomen and cis women the same. It means letting transwomen dress like other women (if it's a sport where there's even any difference in kit) and competing against people with the same levels of testosterone etc. They should feel comfortable and welcomed, but their competitors should also feel safe.

I haven't quite formed a view on non-contact sports yet, but I think for MMA, it's pretty obvious that safety comes first.

Foreversearch · 04/04/2023 14:43

TheCentreSlide · 04/04/2023 14:23

I do think that you should consider a counter complaint for bullying/harassment. This complaint is designed to make you feel undermined and unsafe in your company.

FFS will everyone calm down and stop trying to escalate rather than de-escalate the situation.

HR have received a complaint and asked op to a meeting to discuss “alleged offensive comments”. Key word here is alleged.

All the op has to do is go and listen to HR. The op can ask what the “alleged offensive comments” were and why were they offensive. The op has had some good and some poor advice on here. I have confidence she can work out which advice to follow.

HR should quickly realise ( and may already realise) this is an employee who is shit stirring and go back and explain their are no grounds for their complaint.

All employees have a right to raise a grievance no matter how spurious. All employers have a responsibility to investigate a grievance, including giving the other party an opportunity to explain their point of view.

If, and only if, HR screw up tomorrow only then does the op needs to consider what course of action to take. Escalating without knowing how tomorrows meeting will go is like adding accelerant to a fire.

Any decent HR will want to resolve this with the least fuss possible.

TheCentreSlide · 04/04/2023 14:46

@Foreversearch You could maybe calm down a little yourself! I said it was something to consider. As you say a good idea for the OP to see how it is handled in the meeting first.

This complaint feels malicious and needs to be handled appropriately.

AmuseBish · 04/04/2023 14:51

it may not be possible for transpeople to compete with people who identify with their birth gender

How do I find out which of these two categories I fall into? Do we need a third one for people with no knowledge of their gender identity?

NormaTheWife · 04/04/2023 17:11

intotalfreefall · 04/04/2023 11:56

I hope all goes well tomorrow, @Grubble.

FWIW, I am very supportive of transpeople living their best lives and I do recognise transwomen as women on a daily basis. I am not GC like you.

However, when it comes to sport, I also recognise that from a safety POV, it may not be possible for transpeople to compete with people who identify with their birth gender and that transpeople may need their own category or two.

I am supportive of equity, which is not always the same thing as equality. In an ideal world, transwomen would get to do all the same things as women who identified with their gender from birth, but this can't be at the expense of keeping everyone physically safe. We're talking MMA - we can't just consider everyone's feelings. We have to do a risk assessment, and the science is not supportive of transwomen being on an even field when it comes to fighting with cis women.

We clearly have very different opinions, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with you that it would likely be unsafe for you to spar with a transwoman who had undergone puberty as a male. I hope that gives you a bit of comfort that people on the other side of the fence can see this is quite mad, and hopefully this is just a pointless box ticking HR exercise where you clarify what was said, and nothing actually happens because you didn't do anything wrong.

Women do not "identify with their birth gender" ( surely that should be sex anyway? ) Women ARE female at birth and in fact at conception.

BlueHeelers · 04/04/2023 17:56

cis women

Please don’t use the term “cis” for women. It’s offensive. We are not a subset of our sex.

creamyterror · 04/04/2023 20:16

intotalfreefall · 04/04/2023 14:40

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon @QuintanaRoo I don't identify with GC because I have no problem with transwomen being in female spaces. I think life as a woman is bloody hard - if someone choose to lives as a woman, I will welcome her with open arms, as she won't have done that lightly. (Seriously, who would choose this life if they didn't have to? It's a man's world still.) I don't mind transwomen using the same toilets as me - if they want to join in with the conversations and preening that only take place in ladies toilets, I'm all for it.

But when it comes to something like MMA, equity doesn't mean treating transwomen and cis women the same. It means letting transwomen dress like other women (if it's a sport where there's even any difference in kit) and competing against people with the same levels of testosterone etc. They should feel comfortable and welcomed, but their competitors should also feel safe.

I haven't quite formed a view on non-contact sports yet, but I think for MMA, it's pretty obvious that safety comes first.

Are you happy for a transwoman to share a changing room with your daughter?

TheCentreSlide · 04/04/2023 20:48

@intotalfreefall The trouble is if laws and customs are changed so that any man who identifies as a woman is allowed into any woman’s space, then women and girls will be made vulnerable to the many men who will take advantage of that.

Women and girls are nine times more likely to be sexually assaulted in a gender neutral bathroom for eg. So eighty extra women or girls harmed to every ten. If that doesn’t matter to you, because you think men identifying as women should be able to enter and ‘preen’ as they like, then perhaps you should ask yourself why.

stripeypetunias · 04/04/2023 20:49

@TheCentreSlide

Women and girls are nine times more likely to be sexually assaulted in a gender neutral bathroom

awful statistic :(

dexterslockedintheshedagain · 04/04/2023 21:18

@stripeypetunias
That's interesting (and appalling) and I know someone who'd find that useful right now.
Where did you find it please?

MarshaMelrose · 04/04/2023 21:26

Women and girls are nine times more likely to be sexually assaulted in a gender neutral bathroom for eg.

Are those true figures? I'm absolutely shocked. How come that isn't publicised more.

3luckystars · 04/04/2023 21:40

Good luck tomorrow. Say as little as possible.

MarshaMelrose · 04/04/2023 21:41

Does it sound strange to say I think that's shocking and yet, if I think about it, unsurprising.

BornBlonde · 05/04/2023 00:40

Genevieva · 03/04/2023 14:04

Agree with PP who say don't allow them to take you down the trans route. Just parrot the legislative and sport governing body position. Biological sex is a protected characteristic. Biological sex has an empirical impact on size, strength etc (ie there is not only a material difference that can be measured, but that difference is so great that it is easily observable to ordinary people). Therefore the sport governing body separates people according to biological sex to ensure their safety. This is common across sports in which there is a physical strength and size advantage and has been the case ever since women started participating in those sports. That is why it is obvious.

Any attempt to get you talking about trans women and trans men needs to be shut down. You weren't talking about them. You weren't having a discussion about trans rights or trans identity. You are not willing to have a discussion with HR about anything trans related as it is irrelevant to what you were talking about. You were just answering a question about why you weren't going to your sport on a particular occasion. You gave a straightforward reply. End of.

This

BornBlonde · 05/04/2023 00:45

Good luck

Carlycat · 05/04/2023 00:59

justathought69 · 03/04/2023 12:49

Just say its obvious as you don't want to encourage violence against women by men, and then ask them if they advocate men hitting women.

They will shit their pants.

This 👌

Carlycat · 05/04/2023 01:02

pieceofpasta · 03/04/2023 13:27

I think you should make a counter complaint of bullying and harassment. I wouldn't even go to meeting until they can explain what you've done that is wrong. Tell them that you know the law and you have done nothing wrong. WORIADS

This 👌

Carlycat · 05/04/2023 01:11

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2023 14:06

I would raise a counter complaint for victimisation, harassment and personal attack, OP.

That's outrageous behaviour from your colleague and he shouldn't be allowed to get away with bullying you.

👍

Carlycat · 05/04/2023 01:12

Nothing to add but absolute solidarity in the midst of insanity ✊