To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

@SarahBop why would we be pissed off about the need for boosters? Flu requires a yearly booster, how is this different?
Do you realise that the BCG that you had as a teen has worn off? So if you moved to a place with high levels of TB you'd probably need another one?
Of course "goal posts" will move, the virus is evolving so we need the flexibility to evolve with it.
How can people not understand that?

[quote jiggeryjaggerywoo]@SarahBop why would we be pissed off about the need for boosters? Flu requires a yearly booster, how is this different?
Do you realise that the BCG that you had as a teen has worn off? So if you moved to a place with high levels of TB you'd probably need another one?
Of course "goal posts" will move, the virus is evolving so we need the flexibility to evolve with it.
How can people not understand that? [/quote]
Because you've never been told you can't go on holiday unless you have your flu jab, or made to stay indoors for 10 days afterwards unless you take the booster, have you.

There is a huge difference. They are using coronavirus and the vaccines to see how many people will comply to their mad rules

@JassyRadlett

I’ll also confess to being really interested in how people get themselves into strongly self-reinforcing feedback loops off the kind that SarahBop described - where they are so ingrained in their thinking that when presented with a scenario their automatic reaction is to believe whatever aligns with their existing beliefs even if all the evidence points the other way.

It’s something I recognise in myself from early in the pandemic, around children, schools and transmission. I hoovered up any argument or piece of evidence, however thin, that supported my position. But that wasn’t really tenable and it didn’t carry me very far - the evidence didn’t solidify in the direction I wanted, and I had to be honest with myself that wishing and magical thinking wasn’t going to make it real without evidence to support it.

Me too! I actually tried to minimise the impact of the virus.

they are so ingrained in their thinking that when presented with a scenario their automatic reaction is to believe whatever aligns with their existing beliefs even if all the evidence points the other way.

Yes, sadly I've ended up breaking off contact with one friend who does just this (and there's plenty of it here on this thread).

I admire your efforts to reason with people, but I'm pretty sure they are wasted. Last time I spoke to my friend, he said I'd dropped the topic because I could see he was right and just didn't want to admit it! 🤣 (I was, of course, just trying to avoid conflict. I think it's relevant that he's ASD and is medicated for anxiety.)

@SarahBop
"There is a huge difference. They are using coronavirus and the vaccines to see how many people will comply to their mad rules"

Can you not see that is right out of the conspiracy theorists handbook?

A vaccine has been developed which works, which is amazing. Because of the nature of the virus immunity wanes (whether natural after having COVID or from the vax), so we need boosters to maintain immunity.
By what your saying, it implies that the scientists could have made a vaccine that lasted forever but didn't because that wouldn't let the government control us. Doesn't that sound a bit mad?

just googled 'Covid news' and the top results are:

"Covid: Get booster jabs so we can enjoy christmas" [bbc news]

"Covid Live: Plan B restrictions in UK still possible, government advisor says" [guardian]

"Britons who don't get booster jab could face travel restrictions"

So if the vaccinated people, that took the jab in order to travel and keep their freedoms, now aren't pissed about this ...then hats off to them. The constant moving of goal posts is unfair and the government are making it conditional for people to keep their freedoms, once again

So where exactly does it say deaths rising or mention lockdown? It doesn't does it? Why would I be pissed about any of that? I've had my booster and I get to do all those things win win in my book

SarahBop
"There is a huge difference. They are using coronavirus and the vaccines to see how many people will comply to their mad rules"

See you've totally lost me now - all this "they" and "control" can you please tell us why "they" would want to "control" us? It has been economically disastrous for the country of course "they" don't want another lockdown, everyone who can have a booster will help avoid that. You're wandering into tinfoil hat territory now which is why most posters on here challenge views like yours and the OP's.

@Ghoulette

FYI, the NHS will have no problem replacing you or others who don't want to protects yourselves or, you know, the colleagues you work with who DO come into contact with patients.

Even clinically the staffing levels have started to go up again in recent weeks.

Oh, comedy gold!

I needed a laugh.

@Grabmygran

Err.. how is that a sane and rational post?

1. The poster is selfishly saying she didn’t feel the need to get the vaccine despite the evidence that it reduces the risk of transmission to others who remain vulnerable. God forbid her daughter catches covid from some unvaccinated person. She might change her tune then.

2.Nobody is being coerced. The NHS have required staff to be vaccinated for all kinds of things for many years to protect patients and nobody has kicked up a fuss. When doing research for them in 2018 I was required to get my MMR jab before being allowed anywhere near a patient waiting room. If you are not willing to do what you can to protect patients then please don’t work with them.

1. What’s the point of the flu jab comment??Yes the NHS don’t think it’s necessary for you to have a flu jab so they haven’t invited you for one. But they HAVE invited you for a covid jab.

🙄

My daughter is vaccinated.

If she caught covid from an unvaccinated person she's very likely to be fine, as would most people

Perspective please - the way it's going people aren't going to happy until we're attached to a vaccine drip.

I suspect the government will U turn on this.

I hope so; otherwise the NHS staffing crisis will only get worse.

I'm triple vaxxed but I also strongly support my fellow workers' right to not get vaxxed, as I respect their bodily autonomy.

@vodkaredbullgirl

Us carers have to find another job if we refuse the vaccine. So why should NHS get away with it.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

@Spudina

As a nurse, Hep B vaccines have always been mandatory at our trust, so I don’t consider this to be any different. The anti science stance of some of my NHS colleagues gets me down.

I've worked for my Trust for 15 years.

I may have ticked a box 15 years ago saying I'd had Hep B but I have no proof of it and no one has asked me since!

I completely agree with you. Have got the jabs am booked in for my booster, but believe you should have the choice to decline it if you don't want it!

@LMonkey honestly OP, you've started a thread on MN - the same MN that has spent the last 18 months screaming anyone down who didn't stick rigidly to 'the rules' The same MN who have been dutifully bleaching their shopping, telling people who nipped to the shop for milk they were selfish and could've used butter in their cuppa instead (), had endless discussions (shouting matches) about the granny murderers buying 'unessential' Easter eggs with their shopping (because covid can distinguish from those who are solely buying essentials and those who might be having some fun too)

It's a joyless place most of the time - full of bored people who love to judge the behaviour of others.

I honestly don't know a person in RL who gives a shit about other peoples vaccination status.

I can guarantee not one person on this thread who is having a go at you have asked the vaxx status of any medical professional they've been in contact with over the last year. It's a MN thing, don't let it get you down.

@Fordian I've worked for an NHS Trust too since 2012 and occupational health definitely check what vaccines you have had. Evidence has to be provided.

My best friend is very clever. She doesn't want it as she feels we have no idea on the long term effects. Maybe the OP feels the same, and she should have the right to choose. Why should she lose her job because she isn't comfortable about the jab? Is it a very high transmission rate if she catches it and doesn't have the jab?
I still think choice is very important. I'm with OP on this one.
And I'm double jabbed with a booster booked in.

[quote HotPeppasauce2]@Fordian I've worked for an NHS Trust too since 2012 and occupational health definitely check what vaccines you have had. Evidence has to be provided.[/quote]
Yep I agree I had to provide evidence of all my vaccinations, and my ds who is training as a radiographer has had to provide evidence of all his.

@MareofBeasttown

There are millions of vaxxed, highly trained, English speaking nurses from the Philippines, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh ready and willing to work for the NHS. Just saying. It may come to that given the U.K is now giving visas to lorry drivers and abattoir workers.

It's be a very brave post-Brexit government who'd throw open those floodgates.

Where I work, we pretty much suffered a mass walk-out of UK trained HCP staff, largely due to an ill-advised 24/7 work mandate that saw a mass influx of dodgily trained, semi-skilled, often borderline dangerous 'overseas trained' staff.

Sorry, but there it is. I read the Datix.

Interestingly, most of them were shielded for that 12 week period, and none are fully Covid vaxxed, citing religious beliefs, and nervousness due to underlying health conditions (hence the shielding).

We cannot afford to make this vaxx cause any more staff to leave.

Be so careful of what you wish for.

We also have to stop plundering the third and developing world of their staff.

@Lilifer

Even if the vaccine was indisputably 100% effective and everyone accepted this, people still should have the choice to make about their own body free of coercion from their government.

Yes.

I see the anti vax “I’ve done my research on Facebook” crew are out in force. Good luck having anything resembling a sensible conversation now

@Mrbob

I see the anti vax “I’ve done my research on Facebook” crew are out in force. Good luck having anything resembling a sensible conversation now

Why so aggressively patronising?

pointythings 'I know a lot of young people (vaccinated) who would love to move into NHS admin posts. They'll be filled'.

No you don't.

4 lots of adverts yielded 1 candidate. Lasted 3 weeks.

But, judging by many contributions on this thread, I imagine many of you are the type who, when rung by an admin telling you that due to there being no staff, or the 20 year old equipment having broken again, your medical imaging has had to be postponed, you tell the Band 2 admin that it'll be her fault if they die of cancer.

Please don't go imagining there's a queue of young people willing, or, far more pertinently, able~ to do that job.

I don't understand why people can't at least open their minds to the possibility that this policy will do more harm than good? Whether you think HCPs should be vaccinated or not, the fact is, playing chicken with them isn't really going to help an already understaffed health system. You can gleefully agree with the policy, that these selfish 'anti-vaxxers' should bear the consequences of their 'uneducated' choices, however it is not only them that will feel the consequences. Every care home, every hospital, every GP surgery will feel the effects of this policy - and so will every member of the public.

To those saying their best mates uncle would love to fill the OPs position - well, where have they been for the last (at least) 5 years when staffing levels have been declining? Trust me, there isn't an army of people waiting in the wings to wipe your aunty Marjorie's arse - try and think beyond punishing those that hold a different opinion to your own.

@Fordian

pointythings 'I know a lot of young people (vaccinated) who would love to move into NHS admin posts. They'll be filled'.

No you don't.

4 lots of adverts yielded 1 candidate. Lasted 3 weeks.

But, judging by many contributions on this thread, I imagine many of you are the type who, when rung by an admin telling you that due to there being no staff, or the 20 year old equipment having broken again, your medical imaging has had to be postponed, you tell the Band 2 admin that it'll be her fault if they die of cancer.

Please don't go imagining there's a queue of young people willing, or, far more pertinently, able~ to do that job.

Exactly! Those that think an army of trained people are just waiting to snap up these vacancies truly have no clue how dire recruitment in these areas already are.

Though, if the government don't u-turn they're going to find out, quite quickly!

But, judging by many contributions on this thread, I imagine many of you are the type who, when rung by an admin telling you that due to there being no staff, or the 20 year old equipment having broken again, your medical imaging has had to be postponed, you tell the Band 2 admin that it'll be her fault if they die of cancer.

Well, there's no projection going on here at all, is there?

The posts we are having trouble filling in my organisation are Band 5 and above posts. Not because of vaccination requirements but because the pay/responsibility ratio is way, way off. Band 2 and 3 admin posts - not so much of an issue. And I bloody value the young band 3s who support me, every step of the way. They are all vaccinated, both flu and COVID, because they care.

I strongly believe that this isn't an Individual choice as it's a public health issue. Educate yourself and get vaccinated