To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

No booster... no hassle-free foreign travel: Ministers are drawing up plans to bring back tests and quarantine for those who refuse third Covid jab

Get booster jabs so we can enjoy Christmas - Javid

and on and on and on.

@pumpkinpal

To generalise, the anti vax people I've met are moon howlers.

You say that like it's a bad thing

Well @murcimari, if you do not believe ANY govt figures across the world or ANY mainstream media worldwide, you are right. My point is indeed pointless and it is time I went outside because the sun is shining:) Carry on with your alternative sources.

I respect the poster upthread who said that she won't take the vaccine but will accept restrictions on travel, work and events. That's what it's going to come to, eventually, like it or not.

So if 90% are vaccinated, why are rates still increasing? Could it be their vaccine doesn't work as well as they'd made people believe...but no, we'll blame the ones that are refusing to take the vaccine (even though most of those have probably developed natural antibodies anyway)

Firstly, they’re not still rising. Hopefully the current decline will continue.

Secondly, there has always been clarity that the vaccines are not perfect (no vaccine is), and that they are absolutely brilliant at their primary purpose of preventing serious illness and death, and good at preventing infections. They were better at preventing infections before delta, but even with delta they prevent the majority.

Scientists and doctors, including the CSA and the CMO but also including independent scientists and those critical of the government were always clear that we would have an exit wave, even without waning vaccine effectiveness. The transmissibility of delta and reduced effectiveness against it are major factors.

The high level of infections when we dropped restrictions meant the exit wave is commensurately higher - more circulating virus means more opportunities to infect the unvaccinated and for breakthrough infections, particularly in high risk settings like household contact.

The exit wave is following a fairly predictable model; helped by the fact that the government fucked up the rollout to teenagers. That delay has been a factor in the current wave being largely concentrated in younger teens and the demographic of their household contacts (and increasing evidence eg income bracket alignment that these are very likely to be their parents.)

None of this is in any way secret, it has been well publicised. These figures have been discussed multiple times on this thread. Who are the ‘they’ you are referring to??

@MareofBeasttown

Well *@murcimari*, if you do not believe ANY govt figures across the world or ANY mainstream media worldwide, you are right. My point is indeed pointless and it is time I went outside because the sun is shining:) Carry on with your alternative sources.

I respect the poster upthread who said that she won't take the vaccine but will accept restrictions on travel, work and events. That's what it's going to come to, eventually, like it or not.

Just while @murcimari is here it would be great if she could provide those sources for the statements she made on Friday about vaccine performance (while accusing me of misinformation.)

@MareofBeasttown

I must be unique in that all the people I know in the UK and all the people I know in my "third world" home country have taken the vax. In my home country, there are shops and restaurants advertising full vaxxed staff. We are all sheep, I guess, with weak minds and beliefs.

Well I'm pretty certain that's discrimination - which up until 2021 was very much illegal - all of a sudden, it's totally acceptable and the government are causing it

So if the staff have to be double vax'ed - does that mean they won't allow in unvaccinated customers too?
Hmmm this is all very reminiscent of times in our history where a whole demographic of people were excluded from society..no??

Well I'm pretty certain that's discrimination - which up until 2021 was very much illegal - all of a sudden, it's totally acceptable and the government are causing it

Not all forms of discrimination are illegal. It is illegal to discriminate based on a protected characteristic. Vaccination status (absent it being linked to a protected characteristic) is not one of them.

Comparing to ethnicity or skin colour is pretty low. One is a choice, one is who a person is.

@SarahBop I really need to get off this thread but no, they do allow unvaxxed customers in. I don't see it as discrimination if staff willingly get the vax- and in many developing countries people are very keen to get it because they have already lost half their family and friends to Covid. This isn't a mild virus everywhere in the world. And now I really am off.

@SarahBop

You’re right. No, it’s not. It’s nothing like that.

@JassyRadlett

Well I'm pretty certain that's discrimination - which up until 2021 was very much illegal - all of a sudden, it's totally acceptable and the government are causing it

Not all forms of discrimination are illegal. It is illegal to discriminate based on a protected characteristic. Vaccination status (absent it being linked to a protected characteristic) is not one of them.

Comparing to ethnicity or skin colour is pretty low. One is a choice, one is who a person is.

But it's not a 'choice' if it becomes a way of life. If the only way a human being can live freely, travel, enter shops and gain employment is by fitting into a certain [vaccinated] catergory - then it's not a choice is it, it's conformity.

@JassyRadlett

So if 90% are vaccinated, why are rates still increasing? Could it be their vaccine doesn't work as well as they'd made people believe...but no, we'll blame the ones that are refusing to take the vaccine (even though most of those have probably developed natural antibodies anyway)

Firstly, they’re not still rising. Hopefully the current decline will continue.

Secondly, there has always been clarity that the vaccines are not perfect (no vaccine is), and that they are absolutely brilliant at their primary purpose of preventing serious illness and death, and good at preventing infections. They were better at preventing infections before delta, but even with delta they prevent the majority.

Scientists and doctors, including the CSA and the CMO but also including independent scientists and those critical of the government were always clear that we would have an exit wave, even without waning vaccine effectiveness. The transmissibility of delta and reduced effectiveness against it are major factors.

The high level of infections when we dropped restrictions meant the exit wave is commensurately higher - more circulating virus means more opportunities to infect the unvaccinated and for breakthrough infections, particularly in high risk settings like household contact.

The exit wave is following a fairly predictable model; helped by the fact that the government fucked up the rollout to teenagers. That delay has been a factor in the current wave being largely concentrated in younger teens and the demographic of their household contacts (and increasing evidence eg income bracket alignment that these are very likely to be their parents.)

None of this is in any way secret, it has been well publicised. These figures have been discussed multiple times on this thread. Who are the ‘they’ you are referring to??

They - the government.

They - the government.

But the figures they have published (weekly) are the figures that have been shared here.

But it's not a 'choice' if it becomes a way of life.

If the only way a human being can live freely, travel, enter shops and gain employment is by fitting into a certain [vaccinated] catergory - then it's not a choice is it, it's conformity.

I’m firstly, simply pointing out that your statement about discrimination was factually incorrect.

I maintain that comparing it to racism or other characteristics that are part of who a person is, rather than the consequence of a choice, is minimising the impact of racial and other discrimination that has blighted generations of people.

Vaccination, unlike race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, is a choice. Even if the consequences of that choice are extremely unpleasant, it remains a choice.

Again, I am making no statements on the rights or wrongs of any of those policies. But I will say that I think comparing it with racism is very unpleasant.

SarahBop
I find it 'silly' you're so terrified of a virus that is mild in most people.

What in earth makes you think I'm terrified of the virus, annoyed by it but certainly not terrified, what a ridiculous assertion.

You sound like someone from the middle ages tbh. You didn't answer my question as to how many people you think would have died from the virus without the vaccination. Glad most of us had the decency to step up and take it for the better good of humanity.

But it's not a 'choice' if it becomes a way of life.

If the only way a human being can live freely, travel, enter shops and gain employment is by fitting into a certain [vaccinated] category - then it's not a choice is it, it's conformity.

Of course it's still a choice.

If you're choosing not to be vaccinated, you're choosing to restrict your own freedoms. You're also relying on millions of other people having their vaccinations to keep you safe.

Don't act like you're so hard done by when it's a choice you're making.

@Bringonthepjs

SarahBop I find it 'silly' you're so terrified of a virus that is mild in most people.

What in earth makes you think I'm terrified of the virus, annoyed by it but certainly not terrified, what a ridiculous assertion.

You sound like someone from the middle ages tbh. You didn't answer my question as to how many people you think would have died from the virus without the vaccination. Glad most of us had the decency to step up and take it for the better good of humanity.

for the better good of humanity. And what about all the health workers that were working unvaccinated during the pandemic?

Get off your high horse. For the better good of humanity, thanks for the laugh

@icedcoffees

But it's not a 'choice' if it becomes a way of life.

If the only way a human being can live freely, travel, enter shops and gain employment is by fitting into a certain [vaccinated] category - then it's not a choice is it, it's conformity.

Of course it's still a choice.

If you're choosing not to be vaccinated, you're choosing to restrict your own freedoms. You're also relying on millions of other people having their vaccinations to keep you safe.

Don't act like you're so hard done by when it's a choice you're making.

It's not a choice if peoples freedoms are revoked unless they comply.

I'm not anti-vax, I am pro-choice. I find it incredibly concerning and sad that our government aren't.

I'm pleased for the people that wanted the vaccine and managed to get it, I'm pleased for those that have recovered from coronavirus.

What I'm not pleased about is mandatory vaccinations and vaccine passports - I think it's a horrific idea and is just working to divide an already broken society

It's not a choice if peoples freedoms are revoked unless they comply.

But that already applies to so many things.

You can't drive without a drivers license.
You can't travel abroad without a passport.
You can't do certain jobs without a DBS check.
You can't travel to certain countries without vaccines.

In some countries, children can't attend school without having completed all their childhood vaccinations.

What I'm not pleased about is mandatory vaccinations

But vaccinations aren't becoming mandatory. There's no law coming in that says you need to be vaccinated or you to go jail or have to pay a fine. You can still choose not to have the vaccine, you just need to accept that there are consequences to that choice.

@Bringonthepjs

SarahBop I find it 'silly' you're so terrified of a virus that is mild in most people.

What in earth makes you think I'm terrified of the virus, annoyed by it but certainly not terrified, what a ridiculous assertion.

You sound like someone from the middle ages tbh. You didn't answer my question as to how many people you think would have died from the virus without the vaccination. Glad most of us had the decency to step up and take it for the better good of humanity.

Honestly I don't think it would've been much more, but no doubt you'll ridicule my optimism around that.

Obviously it took time for doctors to learn how it was affecting the body and the treatments needed [proning etc] and of course it was horrific for the staff - they were already massively understaffed and then along comes a virus which people don't know how to treat.

I've worked in an NHS hospital and I wouldn't go back. 12 hours on my feet, constant stress - it was not worth the hourly wage.

How many nurses and midwives are off with longterm stress. They are utterly broken and that was without a pandemic thrown into the mix. The government have done away with bursaries, so now struggling to get new nurses and midwives too.
Yes we are lucky to have it, but it is overstretched and underfunded.

It's hardly a shock that our lovely NHS staff couldn't cope when the shit hit the fan.

And what about all the health workers that were working unvaccinated during the pandemic?

What about it? The situation has evolved since then, significantly so. Are you arguing that an unsafe situation should remain unsafe despite the means to make it safer? What’s the reasoning behind that?

Honestly I don't think it would've been much more, but no doubt you'll ridicule my optimism around that.

I won’t ridicule you - I hope I haven’t ridiculed anyone here.

I am very curious to know what you based that optimism on. Was it continued NPIs, or more targeted?

what about all the health workers that were working unvaccinated during the pandemic?

What do you mean by this question?

@icedcoffees

It's not a choice if peoples freedoms are revoked unless they comply.

But that already applies to so many things.

You can't drive without a drivers license.
You can't travel abroad without a passport.
You can't do certain jobs without a DBS check.
You can't travel to certain countries without vaccines.

In some countries, children can't attend school without having completed all their childhood vaccinations.

What I'm not pleased about is mandatory vaccinations

But vaccinations aren't becoming mandatory. There's no law coming in that says you need to be vaccinated or you to go jail or have to pay a fine. You can still choose not to have the vaccine, you just need to accept that there are consequences to that choice.

Yes I see your point.

But when you're talking about our national health service; one which just abused and broke those very unvaccinated staff, now telling them they're the problem and forcing them out - is that really fair and just?

Especially when the staff will be wearing PPE - Whereas the unvaccinated patient will be laying in a bed meters from others, without PPE.

It just makes no sense. I feel it's another scare tactic, they're expecting the unvaccinated to step up to be vaccinated and I think they'll actually get a shock when they lose thousands upon thousands of staff. The result will be that the remaining staff will be under even more pressure, and the vulnerable patients will suffer.

@JassyRadlett

Honestly I don't think it would've been much more, but no doubt you'll ridicule my optimism around that.

I won’t ridicule you - I hope I haven’t ridiculed anyone here.

I am very curious to know what you based that optimism on. Was it continued NPIs, or more targeted?

Pure optimism.

I've seen news stories where vaccinated people have still caught covid and ended up in ICU - Then said things like "thank goodness I'd have that vaccine, or I'm sure I would've died" ..well I am wired to think, or perhaps you ended up so poorly because you had the vaccine in the first place and without the vaccine, you wouldn't have even ended up in hospital.

But when you're talking about our national health service; one which just abused and broke those very unvaccinated staff, now telling them they're the problem and forcing them out - is that really fair and just?

Well, I would argue that they shouldn't be working with vulnerable patients in the first place if they aren't willing to take the very basic step of getting vaccinated (medical exemptions aside, of course).