To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

Pure optimism.

Optimism? You base your theory on optimism? Good grief, I will ridicule that statement. It beggars belief.

I feel it's another scare tactic, they're expecting the unvaccinated to step up to be vaccinated and I think they'll actually get a shock when they lose thousands upon thousands of staff. The result will be that the remaining staff will be under even more pressure, and the vulnerable patients will suffer.
It's a big game of chicken. The government know that many staff will leave plunging the already stretched NHS into further crisis.

Just like they know that lots of care staff left and care homes are closing right now. Those residents will end up in hospitals that are already short staffed. Just as we enter a winter with flu & covid.

Perhaps they'll fudge again it with a self certified "medical exemption" which they had to come up with a day before it became compulsory for care workers as so many carers were just going to leave.

I've seen news stories where vaccinated people have still caught covid and ended up in ICU - Then said things like "thank goodness I'd have that vaccine, or I'm sure I would've died" ..well I am wired to think, or perhaps you ended up so poorly because you had the vaccine in the first place and without the vaccine, you wouldn't have even ended up in hospital

Except that the numbers don’t back that up. Compare admissions and fatalities to the 2020 waves and it’s fairly obvious that something has had an impact on lowering both those numbers significantly. There’s certainly nothing to suggest that having a covid vaccine can make an infection worse.

There’s an argument that vaccinations have meant that we’ve (as in our parliament representatives) allowed infection rates to climb to very high levels so yes, if there were no vaccinations we’d probably be living with forms of restrictions and they may not have been as likely to be exposed to it in the first place, but that wasn’t a tenable position long term for anybody.

well I am wired to think, or perhaps you ended up so poorly because you had the vaccine in the first place and without the vaccine, you wouldn't have even ended up in hospital.

There is no evidence at all to support that viewpoint, though - quite the opposite. I wonder what leads you to gravitate towards the positions for which there is no evidence, rather than those for which evidence exists?

Those who are vaccinated and still end up in ICU are in extremely small numbers now, of course. Simply because the vaccines are very good at preventing severe illness and death, even where there is breakthrough illness.

well I am wired to think, or perhaps you ended up so poorly because you had the vaccine in the first place and without the vaccine, you wouldn't have even ended up in hospital.

I have no words tbh

@JassyRadlett

But it's not a 'choice' if it becomes a way of life.

If the only way a human being can live freely, travel, enter shops and gain employment is by fitting into a certain [vaccinated] catergory - then it's not a choice is it, it's conformity.

I’m firstly, simply pointing out that your statement about discrimination was factually incorrect.

I maintain that comparing it to racism or other characteristics that are part of who a person is, rather than the consequence of a choice, is minimising the impact of racial and other discrimination that has blighted generations of people.

Vaccination, unlike race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, is a choice. Even if the consequences of that choice are extremely unpleasant, it remains a choice.

Again, I am making no statements on the rights or wrongs of any of those policies. But I will say that I think comparing it with racism is very unpleasant.

@JassyRadlett - I think you should go into politics. The way you managed to completely dodge the whole point of the previous post is quite masterful! At the end of the day, any kind of discrimination, no matter what it is based on, is surely not ethical, incusive or kind? If you don't think those qualities are important then please can you just own that fact and stop wasting everyone's time?

@JassyRadlett

well I am wired to think, or perhaps you ended up so poorly because you had the vaccine in the first place and without the vaccine, you wouldn't have even ended up in hospital.

There is no evidence at all to support that viewpoint, though - quite the opposite. I wonder what leads you to gravitate towards the positions for which there is no evidence, rather than those for which evidence exists?

Those who are vaccinated and still end up in ICU are in extremely small numbers now, of course. Simply because the vaccines are very good at preventing severe illness and death, even where there is breakthrough illness.

Which is great news, of course.

Regardless of whether it's unvaccinated people ending up in ICU, the point is they are also leaving ICU and going home after recovering, too.

Back at the start of the pandemic, doctors didn't know how to treat the virus and of course people were being told to stay home. People phoning 111 were phoning too late, once the virus had already affected their breathing - and then ambulances and staff were spread so thin, people died.
I think now they have a better understanding, people are getting help sooner (because they're scared of waiting, so are being overly cautious, understandably) so are being admitted as soon as their breathing is affected.

The point is, deaths are low and whilst the rates of people testing positive are still high, people ARE recovering.
The vaccine has helped, as has herd immunity, as has understanding how best to treat this virus.

The fact the government are still holding the threat of Plan B and another lockdown over us, is unfair. Especially when the majority of people took the vaccine on the understanding life would go back to normal and we would be granted our freedoms again.
There was a post on here a while back, about whether people would conform to another lockdown, and the vast majority said No way.

Life is short, tomorrow is never to be taken for granted. Let's just live and let live.

Honestly, I will be pray for the patients when 100,000 NHS staff leave. Because it will be utterly devastating. I sincerely hope the government do another U-turn on this.

I think you should go into politics. The way you managed to completely dodge the whole point of the previous post is quite masterful! At the end of the day, any kind of discrimination, no matter what it is based on, is surely not ethical, incusive or kind? If you don't think those qualities are important then please can you just own that fact and stop wasting everyone's time?

I think you need to read the context here. I was responding specifically to a post where the PP had said that she thought discrimination was illegal. I pointed out the facts - that it’s only illegal related to protected characteristics. I made no statements about the ethics -I’ve been careful not to throughout it the thread. I’ve made no statements on whether it is ethical, legal, or kind - I simply corrected a poster’s misconception about whether all forms of discrimination were previously illegal.

I have repeatedly said that I’m not expressing any opinions on whether I think vaccine passports, requirements for vaccination for employment, etc, are right or wrong. I think they’re very complex. I am principally on this thread to correct blatant misinformation.

The only thing I have an expressed a clear opinion on is whether any discrimination based on vaccine status is comparable to discrimination based on race. I think it’s a reprehensible comparison for the reasons I’ve stated.

The fact the government are still holding the threat of Plan B and another lockdown over us, is unfair.

Where are they threatening another lockdown? More scaremongering

@SarahBop my immune system doesn't work, which is why I had the vaccine. I've had 3 so far and am absolutely fine

This is a drug I inject weekly. I can't bring myself to worry about the side effects from a vaccine when the entire leaflet is listing everything from bleeding from the lungs to aorta inflammation

I hate taking this drug, the side effects are fucking awful but if I don't take it then I'm more likely to be incredibly unwell if I get covid

I’ll also confess to being really interested in how people get themselves into strongly self-reinforcing feedback loops off the kind that SarahBop described - where they are so ingrained in their thinking that when presented with a scenario their automatic reaction is to believe whatever aligns with their existing beliefs even if all the evidence points the other way.

It’s something I recognise in myself from early in the pandemic, around children, schools and transmission. I hoovered up any argument or piece of evidence, however thin, that supported my position. But that wasn’t really tenable and it didn’t carry me very far - the evidence didn’t solidify in the direction I wanted, and I had to be honest with myself that wishing and magical thinking wasn’t going to make it real without evidence to support it.

@JassyRadlett

I think you should go into politics. The way you managed to completely dodge the whole point of the previous post is quite masterful! At the end of the day, any kind of discrimination, no matter what it is based on, is surely not ethical, incusive or kind? If you don't think those qualities are important then please can you just own that fact and stop wasting everyone's time?

I think you need to read the context here. I was responding specifically to a post where the PP had said that she thought discrimination was illegal. I pointed out the facts - that it’s only illegal related to protected characteristics. I made no statements about the ethics -I’ve been careful not to throughout it the thread. I’ve made no statements on whether it is ethical, legal, or kind - I simply corrected a poster’s misconception about whether all forms of discrimination were previously illegal.

I have repeatedly said that I’m not expressing any opinions on whether I think vaccine passports, requirements for vaccination for employment, etc, are right or wrong. I think they’re very complex. I am principally on this thread to correct blatant misinformation.

The only thing I have an expressed a clear opinion on is whether any discrimination based on vaccine status is comparable to discrimination based on race. I think it’s a reprehensible comparison for the reasons I’ve stated.

Ok, fair points so thank you. One thing to bear in mind though is that in the UK the lowest vaccinated groups still tend to be within ethnically diverse communities which surely means they will be hardest hit by the introduction of vaccine passports? I therefore don't feel that you can separate the two types of discrimination as easily as you might think. I also personally feel it's slightly insensitive to discuss something that will cause people to lose their livelihoods and drastically affect their mental health in such a detached and unsympathetic manner.

@JassyRadlett

I’ll also confess to being really interested in how people get themselves into strongly self-reinforcing feedback loops off the kind that SarahBop described - where they are so ingrained in their thinking that when presented with a scenario their automatic reaction is to believe whatever aligns with their existing beliefs even if all the evidence points the other way.

It’s something I recognise in myself from early in the pandemic, around children, schools and transmission. I hoovered up any argument or piece of evidence, however thin, that supported my position. But that wasn’t really tenable and it didn’t carry me very far - the evidence didn’t solidify in the direction I wanted, and I had to be honest with myself that wishing and magical thinking wasn’t going to make it real without evidence to support it.

Because I don't believe the media hype that it's as bad as they'll have us believe. I've seen a very different side to what the media portrays (which is ICU, death and imminent long-covid if unvaccinated)

I've seen people not even realise they had the virus.
I've had it and it was mild, thankfully I fully recovered. I've seen lots of others catch it and recover - unvaccinated and vaccinated. I've seen children that literally haven't been affected atall, although the radio adverts now tell us that children are "at risk of getting seriously ill" snd must "do their bit" by being vaccinated.

Simply put, I am not buying into the fear. There are two sides to everything. The figures really aren't that bad - media portrays "Deaths are rising" and these are the headlines printed in the news, but actually it's a handful of deaths compared to the population of the UK.

Also...re the deaths. The covid death figures are within 28 days of a positive PCR.
So when I had covid, and recovered; if I'd then collapsed from cardiac arrest 3 weeks later, that would've gone towards the figures for a covid death. Dying OF covid and dying with covid, are two very different things.

I am choosing not to buy into the fear. I am happy to be in the minority. I am confident to remain unvaccinated, having already fought covid naturally. And I am pleased for those that choose to take the vaccine and have faith it will protect them from death.
Still don't agree with mandatory vaccination for employment status though.

[quote NotMyCat]@SarahBop my immune system doesn't work, which is why I had the vaccine. I've had 3 so far and am absolutely fine

This is a drug I inject weekly. I can't bring myself to worry about the side effects from a vaccine when the entire leaflet is listing everything from bleeding from the lungs to aorta inflammation

I hate taking this drug, the side effects are fucking awful but if I don't take it then I'm more likely to be incredibly unwell if I get covid [/quote]
Bless you. I hope you remain well

Ok, fair points so thank you. One thing to bear in mind though is that in the UK the lowest vaccinated groups still tend to be within ethnically diverse communities which surely means they will be hardest hit by the introduction of vaccine passports? I therefore don't feel that you can separate the two types of discrimination as easily as you might think.

I don’t disagree on any of those points, and you’re attributing things to me here that I’ve not said.

Indirect discrimination is a real and serious issue. Is it relevant to the specific question of ‘were all forms of discrimination illegal before Covid?’ No, it isn’t really, and that was the specific and sole point I was responding to.

I also take the point on the racial and ethnic challenges around vaccination levels - which is one reason I find this such a complex and fraught subject. But again, I don’t think it’s quite the same as the point I responded to which was the suggestion that discrimination based on vaccine status is the same as discrimination based on race. I do find that direct comparison quite horrible, for the reasons I’ve stated.

Again, I’m not promoting the idea of vaccine passports. I’m really not.

I also personally feel it's slightly insensitive to discuss something that will cause people to lose their livelihoods and drastically affect their mental health in such a detached and unsympathetic manner.

That’s fair enough. I’ve tried really hard to stay out of discussions of the policies and their merits on these threads, because as soon as someone feels they can label you, or emotion comes into it, they use it to try to undermine the information you’re sharing.

I don’t find much point in getting into the policy debates any more. Most people are incredibly entrenched, and it becomes really unpleasant.

I do worry about the harms caused by misinformation, so I focus on that.

@LMonkey

One more thing, before I posted this thread I did not consider myself anti-vax - I was pro-choice. I never tried to discourage anyone in my family, or just anyone for that matter, to have the vaccine. It just wasn't something I wanted for myself, or my kids if it came to it. But after all the incredibly horrible comments that have been said here, by rhe 'pro-vaxxers', not because you believe in the vaccine but because of your behaviour towards others about it, and just blatantly berating the people who do not want it, I am truly even more against it now.

👏👏👏 Same here. It seems socially acceptable these days to insult people who do not want these vaccinations. Very off-putting the whole thing. And so horribly divisive. You sound very sane OP, and very brave for starting this thread when it is practically unacceptable to say you have your doubts about the forced jab.

about the forced jab.

Except of course it isn't forced at all is it

Discrimination law is quite complicated now as it seems to include things like veganism in relation to belief systems/religion. However it remains the fact that most forms of discrimination are not illegal.

if the NHS decides not to treat me because I have not had the vaccine. I can live with that.

The figures really aren't that bad - media portrays "Deaths are rising" and these are the headlines printed in the news, but actually it's a handful of deaths compared to the population of the UK.

The headlines aren't saying that though are they?? They report falling cases, steady hospitalisations and level death figures. Declining not rising. Can't think why....

@CoalTit

...hopefully it won’t be too long before everyone in every job needs to be vaccinated, and it catches up with you at some point That seems to be a common sentiment among people who've been vaccinated for Covid19. I'm starting to wonder if some of the Covid19 vaccines employ some amazing new technology that acts on people to make them feel really vindictive.

Oh I'm sure you'll find someone on YouTube has done in-depth "research" into this very matter.

@Xenia

Discrimination law is quite complicated now as it seems to include things like veganism in relation to belief systems/religion. However it remains the fact that most forms of discrimination are not illegal.

if the NHS decides not to treat me because I have not had the vaccine. I can live with that.

At least you'd save money in N.I [GRIN]

"You dont have to lose your job

You can choose to follow the requirement for the role, in whatever format that takes, or you look for another job"

That's some impressive chop logic right there. "You don't have to lose your job - you are still free to do what you're being coerced to do."

The point is it's not a free choice at all if there is job loss coercion.

@Bringonthepjs

The figures really aren't that bad - media portrays "Deaths are rising" and these are the headlines printed in the news, but actually it's a handful of deaths compared to the population of the UK.

The headlines aren't saying that though are they?? They report falling cases, steady hospitalisations and level death figures. Declining not rising. Can't think why....

I just googled 'Covid news' and the top results are:

"Covid: Get booster jabs so we can enjoy christmas" [bbc news]

"Covid Live: Plan B restrictions in UK still possible, government advisor says" [guardian]

"Britons who don't get booster jab could face travel restrictions"

So if the vaccinated people, that took the jab in order to travel and keep their freedoms, now aren't pissed about this ...then hats off to them. The constant moving of goal posts is unfair and the government are making it conditional for people to keep their freedoms, once again

"She’s a secretary and doesn’t habe patients." @Bluntness100 . Yes but she works with doctors who obviously do have patients.

The constant moving of goal posts…

I never understand references to moving of goal posts. It’s an evolving/changing situation albeit it slowly; why would anyone expect responses to be static and final?