What could employers do to better support those aged over 50?

[MumsnetJobsTeam]

Many people - especially women - find it harder to find work once they hit 50, particularly if they've had a career break. Even within the workplace older people can face discrimination, whether being passed over for promotion, treated with condescension, or expected to have the same needs and requirements as someone younger.

We'd love to get your thoughts on how older people are treated in the world of work. Do you think there is discrimination? In what ways are older people harmed by policies and attitudes? And most importantly, what can employers do to better support those over 50?

Mumsnet Jobs is committed to campaigning for greater flexibility and equity in the world of work, and so on February 25th, we'll be putting your comments to a group of top employers who have gathered at MNHQ to learn how they can improve.

Nobody ever died of a hot flush

Minimise it some more why dont you.
So you personally had "some hot flushes" and you think that's all the menopause is?

There are entire threads on this site alone about periods and how bad they can be. But you can just sidestep that too.

Well bully for you @FizzAfterSix ...

It is possible you might consider that your, personal, anecdotal evidence represents a statistically insignificant sample of 1, so to put it politely, you're talking bllcks.

Clearly you're fortunate that you won't have needed to venture over to the MN menopause boards, but if you did, you'd see that there are many, many women who are at the end of their tether with undiagnosed, untreated and debilitating symptoms which impact every single aspect of their lives - work, families, mental health.

Can't say periods ever caused me any issues or days off work, but my god, menopause hit me like a juggernaut and I had no idea what was happening to me with medical professionals trying to treat individual symptoms, rather than consider the whole picture. And yes, it did have an impact at work.

By the way, I think you'll find that bioidentical hormones have been well and truly debunked as have most of the so-called `natural' alternatives which have been proven to be nothing more than expensive placebos for the rich and gullible!

I am 55, in a senior management position and absolutely at the top of my game. I heard last week that I am just about to be passed over for an exec board level position that is going to go to a younger (40s) man who has delivered consistently worse business results than the business I run. I know this because it was openly discussed by our exec team in front of me over dinner ( I am also invisible apparently)

What I really need is an end to sex and age discrimination. However, that being unlikely, I will probably now just drift off into retirement at a time that suits me.

No, the menopause isn't an illness or disability in itself, but its symptoms can cause some women to feel very unwell and not be able to do what they usually do at work or outside of it.

Pregnancy isn't an illness and I didn't have a day off during mine. My colleague however was hospitalised with severe HG and was off for a long time.

The fact that I wasn't ill doesn't mean that she wasn't or shouldn't be.

Periods aren't an illness, but try telling that to someone with severe endometriosis.

There are lots of illnesses that don't kill people - migraines, norovirus, flu (on the most part) - but that doesn't mean that they don't significantly impair someone's functioning for a period of time.

I remember finding one colleague in the toilets in tears. Looking back it was clear they were in that anxiety fog type period associated with the menopause. I couldn't understand it at the time as I viewed her as very capable and wondered why on earth she thought she was 'struggling'.

Roll on 10 years and I am starting to feel the same way. My symptoms are not as bad as some people's and I am really hoping that they don't get worse.

For those saying employers shouldn't make any changes because it's a natural process. These are physical symptoms and should be treated as any other medical symptoms.

Yep. An extremely capable and competent friend of mine who is senior in IT in her company described her symptoms as 'thinking she was going mad'.

Exactly that. Anxiety, self-doubt, brain fog, not being able to string a sentence together sometimes, short-term memory problems.

HRT has helped her manage the symptoms, but it's clear that her confidence has been dented and she's constantly worried about what other people are thinking about her, is she capable enough etc (having been in post for over 10 years).

Dismissing this experience as 'it's not an illness' or 'I don't need girly concessions' isn't helpful.

I was discussing this with dh, who employs a lot of this demographic (and in a media environment fwiw). The company is very mishap friendly, whether that be for illness/childcare/elderly parent care/dog care etc etc.

BUT dh said these adjustments are all for people who've proved their worth as valuable employees. Employing new people legally ready to claim "menopause" time off or allowances would be problematic. A maternity leave is a defined period; menopause leave could extend at the widest range for twenty years!

To be clear (god I sound like a politician!) I'm in no way minimising the significant suffering some women endure whilst going through the menopause. I'm being pragmatic about it (I think) in believing flagging it up as a potential issue to employers is not going to help women aged 50+ in the workplace.

Maybe it should be treated as a chronic health issue affecting an individual. I know that my employer would accommodate, for example, someone going home with a migraine but we work with very tight ratios which would mean we'd have to get someone to cover for them.

IrmaFayLear if your dh (or any other employer) makes recruitment decisions on the possibility that a woman aged say 45 or over will be likely to 'claim' menopause time off or 'allowances' (whatever those things are...) that's blatant sexism and ageism.

It's a similar thing that happens to women in their late 20s/30s/40s re: 'oh they'll get pregnant, go off on maternity leave and then want to return part-time'.

Anyone that an organisation employed can become ill at any point for any amount of time. Once an organisation has recruited who they judge to be the best candidate, they need to manage that person's performance/absences as per their own policies.

Of course it's 'problematic' if someone starts a new job and becomes unwell, that's regardless of the age, sex or any disclosed disability of that individual.

It's not the women working in organisations which will accommodate personal circumstances that we need proper guidance in place for. It's the women working in factories, retail, call centres etc who would suddenly find their zero hours contract meant exactly that if they needed eg even to go to the toilet more frequently than their specified break time.

Allow for long breaks, unpaid extra holidays for travel etc. A lot of people including me and my partner want to travel more before we get too old to do it. However we are going to be working longer as we still need our part time wage for a few more years yet.

if your dh (or any other employer) makes recruitment decisions on the possibility that a woman aged say 45 or over will be likely to 'claim' menopause time off or 'allowances' (whatever those things are...) that's blatant sexism and ageism.

Of course it is. Nevertheless, it happens and proving it to an Employment Tribunal is not easy.

The point is that dh at the moment does not discriminate. In fact he has just employed someone of 60.

BUT if the need for time off is enshrined, that's another nail in the coffin for 50+ women being able to find a job. Of course anyone can get sick or have an accident, but as a fifty-something myself I feel it just would not help my cause if employers were obliged to offer special adjustments as a matter of course.

Allow for long breaks, unpaid extra holidays for travel etc. A lot of people including me and my partner want to travel more. Ha! Don't we all! I did once interview someone who said they liked to travel (ie liked going on holiday) and could the company work with that. Nope. Cheeky bugger.

dh said these adjustments are all for people who've proved their worth as valuable employees. Employing new people legally ready to claim "menopause" time off or allowances would be problematic.

This is one of the reasons why it's important for companies to work on retention of staff before this age - which because of structural sexism affects more women than men. Flexible policies so that people can combine work and family commitments, so that fewer people especially women face the issue of getting back into a decent job after a gap.

What could employers do to better support those aged over 50?

Free Werther's Originals?

I think over 50 is a bit too broad (and I'm 62). People age at different rates, and while a lot of this thread has been about the menopause, the reality is that that only badly affects a minority of one sex. At 50 I wasn't much different from 40. Since I turned 55 I have developed a number of health issues (though to be fair several of those should have been diagnosed earlier) and it's really only in the past year or so that I have felt any degree of slowing down. I have also gone from one full-time job to two part-time ones and these together are at least as demanding as anything I was previously doing. While both are white collar jobs, in one at least I work regularly with people who are 70+, although no longer full-time. I don't see anyone asking for specific support.

Ideally what I would like is the chance to phase into retirement rather than have it as a big bang when it comes. I am always looking over my shoulder a little in case there is some health problem that is going to come along and push me suddenly out of work.

The old job (academic) is getting more and more stressful but so far the scalps it has claimed have been younger colleagues in their 40s. One person took early retirement last year having had enough, but the rest of us oldies are soldiering on.

In fact, in relation to job 1, and part of the reason I went part-time on it and took job 2, is that I have been doing much the same things in it for 20 years now and have been passed over promotion (which tends to be 'dead person's shoes' anyway) so I am bored stiff. Even though i am getting that bit older I still need a challenge to inspire and motivate me!

IrmaFayLear I don't think anyone has suggested that women over 50 are offered 'special adjustments as a matter of course' or 'having time off enshrined' have they?

Employers are obligated to make adjustments for conditions that are defined as disability under the Equality Act.

All people are suggesting, in light of employment tribunal outcomes, is that women who are experiencing disabling symptoms of the menopause are treated in accordance with the law.

Women who are not disabled as per the Act obviously won't be entitled to any type of 'special adjustment'. Same as men who aren't disabled by symptoms of a condition.

This thread has lots of posts from women who sailed through menopause, for example.

Yep, it sucks for an organisation if anyone becomes unwell as soon as they start or just after they've been confirmed in post, but that's the risk that employers take and should plan for the possibility of.

But I'm thinking of the before they've even started scenario, not valuable employees who should have adjustments.

You use the word "disability" and that makes me... I don't know, can't articulate it. I just know that menopause is an unavoidable stage in life, just as puberty is, or to some extent pregnancy. It is not a "disability". Some of the experiences that go with it may well be disabling in their severity, but that is not the same as having a disability.

Are you suggesting that someone rocks up at an interview and discloses "the menopause" as something they will need adjustments for?

No. I use the word 'disability' because that's the language that the Equality Act 2010 uses about rights at work among other things.

I don't think either I or anyone else has said that menopause is a 'disability' only that some women are disabled by its effects as per the Equality Act definition of disability.

In the same way that some women are disabled by pregnancy symptoms (I didn't have a day off during mine, but my colleague was hospitalised with HG and on sickness absence for most of hers). These different experiences are why there's legislation to protect women from being sacked for being pregnant.

I'm not suggesting anything other than employers act within legal frameworks, actually. So asking candidates if they need any adjustments at application and interview stage, asking them if they wish to declare a disability (as per the EA), making reasonable adjustments (as per the EA).

What if a candidate asks for an application form in braille or text-to-speech then 'rocks up' to an interview and discloses that they are blind or severely dyslexic?

The law requires that they are interviewed according to their skills to do the job, and that if they are the best candidate and then if reasonable adjustments can be made so that they can do their job that they are offered the post and that the employer makes the adjustments.

It's the same principle. If a woman discloses that she is severely affected by insomnia (most won't, we're so used to putting up and shutting up) and she is the best candidate, and the post can accommodate a later start or working hours spread over the day and evening, it would be lawful (and good for the employer) for her to be offered the post.

If she wasn't able to do the job due to competence, absences etc the organisation has recourse to exactly the same policies and procedures as they do for every other employee.

I’m a teacher, I’m knackered constantly.

I think there needs to be recognition that older people don’t have the energy or physical capability as 20 year olds. I know a million people will come in saying they do.

But I don’t, nether doesn’t my dh, nether did all my previous colleagues who retired early . They were worn out. As am l. Teaching is a very physical job.

I’m not interested in the politics or cut and thrust of the workplace. Older people need to be valued as stable and reliable. Not expected to perform in the same way as 25 year olds eager to get ahead. Why is this overvalued so much?

The menopause has given me severe anxiety. It is disabling, but it is also a disability. Whether it’s a natural process are not, many if the symptoms are disabling and therefore they are a disability

FizzAfterSix - It's that well-known expert, the NHS, not me ("lol") that has pointed out that there is no credible evidence for the claims made for biodentical hormones and similarly pointed out that there is no supporting scientific evidence for many complementary therapies vs. that of a placebo. Sure, they work for some people, but only because people who use them believe they will work - a bit like praying really.

Can you provide links for evidence-based, peer-reviewed clinical trials for these time-proven complementary therapies? No, I thought not.

Some people find their menopause symptoms only begin several years later - perhaps that will be you? I do hope your work colleagues and manager offer you more sympathy than you have shown others here...

I posted above but wanted to come in again. I’m over 60, in a consultancy type role and self-employed and have no idea if my menopause was good, bad or indifferent. I think making it a ‘thing’ will just give businesses another clandestine reason not to employ us. A good employer and/or manager should know their people and take everyone’s circumstances on a case by case basis. (Having said that, I know there are plenty of terrible managers around.)

Fluffiphlox it's great that your menopause passed you by. Other women have very different experiences.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that menopause is made more of a 'thing' than any other health condition that negatively impacts on some individuals.

It's not the people with accommodating managers in senior roles who I'm most concerned about. It's the women in low paid jobs who are seen as dispensable who need legal protection and for it to be enforced.

I'm over 50,officially past it lol, menopause out of the way, thankfully! Suffered with hot flushes something terrible? had to give up my little on the side cleaning job, as I felt I was going to spontaneously combust, I was just so hot all the time! My proper job was fine as I work outside. All sorts of ages at work, the younger ones do go out with the older ones, guess it depends on attitude. Personally, as much as I love younger people, I find I don't have a lot in common, don't have the same sense of humour for a start, infact, I wonder if they have all been lobotomised and had it bypassed have teenage daughters who often look at me like I'm an alien! Managers just let me get on with my menopausal flushes and they weren't really an issue, so guess I am lucky in my working environment.

Exactly what @thehorseandhisboy said.

Which is why in an ideal world, treating all employees individually is what should happen. No-one should presume that because a person is female and of a certain age, then they will be struggling at work. It is insulting to say the least.

I agree with what @IrmaFayLear is saying.