What could employers do to better support those aged over 50?

[MumsnetJobsTeam]

Many people - especially women - find it harder to find work once they hit 50, particularly if they've had a career break. Even within the workplace older people can face discrimination, whether being passed over for promotion, treated with condescension, or expected to have the same needs and requirements as someone younger.

We'd love to get your thoughts on how older people are treated in the world of work. Do you think there is discrimination? In what ways are older people harmed by policies and attitudes? And most importantly, what can employers do to better support those over 50?

Mumsnet Jobs is committed to campaigning for greater flexibility and equity in the world of work, and so on February 25th, we'll be putting your comments to a group of top employers who have gathered at MNHQ to learn how they can improve.

Do you think you are risk of creating a narrative where women are maligned in the workforce here, Mumsnet?

So, for women, companies are expected to:

Graduate level- need to focus on diversity and invest in tailored schemes to attract young women.

Late 20s to 40s- allow women to take the opportunity to step out of it, or back from, full-time employment to allow them to have babies and take time to raise families including contingency for full time workers who are the primary source of emergency childcare (which typically falls to women). Facilitate career breaks, maybe create a returners programme to encourage women back into the workforce. Maternity leave pay and strong flexible working helps.

50- your female worker is now “older” so not capable of performing tasks at the required level (based on the opening post of this thread) and is probably a hormonal mess anyway.

It’s almost as if we’re trying to highlight reasons that it’s easier to just hire men.

Policies that benefit everyone (flexible working, carers’ leave, good career structures) also benefit people in my age-group. No need to label us or treat us differently

Agree with this. I really don't want any special treatment and don't need any 'support', I'm perfectly capable of doing my job and no different than my younger colleagues.

I will manage menopause so that doesn't change
Is this like I will be the best parent ever, my child will never tantrum, my child will only ever have the finest organic food, my child will eat anything put in front of them? And then you have a child?
That's the funniest statement ever. I surely do hope that works for you. But back in the real world, where women every day are trying really hard not to give in to every single menopause symptom and somehow still working. Well done to yous.

Spot on @bananabixfloof!

Some of the issues which may impact women 50+ can also affect men. This is the age for high blood pressure and heart problems which affect men at least as much as women (I'm not sure if it's more or similar)

DH was an only child, so taking care of the welfare of elderly parents (plus a childless uncle) fell on him - it added considerably to a stressful job and contributed to health problems which led him to have to downshift. His company's culture had zero empathy let alone any helpful policies. He now sees from press releases that they're busily reinventing wheels.

My company otoh - different culture, valuing my skills - was understanding of the knock on impact on me. Massive difference. Guess what, I'm still working for them. No-one has mentioned retirement to me ... a couple of years ago I casually referred to retiring someday and saw a look of panic on a couple of the managers faces.

The problem with menopausal symptoms is that a lot of them start in a small way in peri-menopause and women (and GPs!) don't recognise they are hormonally linked and try to treat them in isolation.
In my case I started getting heart palpitations and back pain in my late 40s. I had ECGs for my heart which were clear. The palpitations were triggered by 'stressful' events such as presentations and large meeting rooms full of people. These were both part of my sales-related job (which I'd done for many years without a problem) and suddenly I struggled.
I had all sorts of tests for back pain - chiropractor, osteopathy, acupuncture, etc and occupational health out to look at chairs/desks etc. In the end I left the company and I just didn't feel I could do the job properly. It was only a few years later when I started taking HRT that the palpitations and backache disappeared almost overnight and I made the link.

Sadly, I honestly don't think you can change this. I honestly can't think of a single thing to recommend, only because you can't make a company change their ethos on this.

Companies just see them as a liability and cost wise, will hire 2 millennials for a fraction of the price. The experience of a 50 year old simply isn't valued.
How can this be changed? It can't. Unfortunately.

Can we stop focussing on the ridiculous stereotypes that make younger people thinks we are weird and undesirable employees - menopause, unpredictable dependents, unable to work a keyboard etc - and start focussing on what makes us such a brilliant workforce. Experience, stability, emotional intelligence, sound perspective, ability to deal with pretty much whatever life throws at us, less likely to rock up at work with a hideous hangover, ability to multitask, I could go on and on. Make us desirable, don’t make us sound like a charity case.

It would be helpful to calibrate educational attainment - in the 80s about ⅓ as many people went to uni as do nowadays; someone with a couple of good A levels then is probably pretty similar to someone with an average degree nowadays. Young recruitment consultants really need to know that.

Is this like I will be the best parent ever, my child will never tantrum, my child will only ever have the finest organic food, my child will eat anything put in front of them? And then you have a child?
That's the funniest statement ever. I surely do hope that works for you. But back in the real world, where women every day are trying really hard not to give in to every single menopause symptom and somehow still working. Well done to yous.

No, it's nothing like that. It's that having already worked through cancer, multiple miscarriages, bereavement, 4 rounds of IVF (the prep for which plays with your hormones in a similar way) etc etc, I will try my best not to let menopause be the thing to derail me. Your sarcasm and incredulity is not warranted when all I am saying is that sometimes you just have to get on with life.

Workplaces should provide an environment where men - of all ages - feel able to ask for and then receive flexible working, thus taking some of the burden off women.

A male CEO who works flexibly so that they can take their elderly parent to the supermarket twice a week or a male director who works 80% fte so they can spend more time with their children... change needs to come from the top.

‘Othering’ one group of employees, be it older women, women with young kids or whatever, only works to some extent, and can have some negative side effects.

And if by age 50 or so menopause is the worst thing you have had to face physically and/or mentally in terms of your ability to carry on working, you're very lucky or to coin your phrase 'well done to yous'.

resipsa I hope for your sake you breeze through menopause as some lucky women do, however by age 50 I had already "got on with it" through two awful childbirths, surgery for one child at age 2, special needs disagnosis for the other, caring for two dying parents within 5 years of each other from cancer and parkinson's and I can honestly say it was menopause which brought me down the lowest.
I honestly thought I was dying and nobody seemed able to help, or even suggest to me that my symptoms might be menopause related.

I am in it, and have had some issues, but I think @respisa 's attitude is the one I want to have as my default. Just, yeh, menopause, in that now I guess, but ONWARDS, deal with whatever I need to deal with as and when but don't go in to it expecting every symptom, or every symptom to be extreme.

Plus taking a month off is great if no one has to cover your work when you're away but I'd hate it if someone had a whole month off where I work.

How would you feel about a co-worker taking a year of maternity leave then?

Just, yeh, menopause, in that now I guess, but ONWARDS, deal with whatever I need to deal with as and when but don't go in to it expecting every symptom, or every symptom to be extreme

That's great for you. I had no preconceptions about the menopause because I have no female relatives that lived long enough to go through it, let alone give me some clues about any of it. So 4 years ago when I started, I thought I was dying. Having never really thought about what menopause meant, what symptoms might be, how it could effect me.
It was a huge shock to me that I could feel so godawful all the time.

After seeing a great dr who despite my age saw that it was indeed menopause I got HRT. I can imagine my life being very different now if that dr had been not quite so clued up.
HRT is not actually a cure all. It lessens the symptoms so i can still work, but I've had to go part time. No way could I work full time.
Nothing is even known about how long this will last. Could finish next month, could hang on another 8 years or more.

resipsa I hope for your sake you breeze through menopause as some lucky women do, however by age 50 I had already "got on with it" through two awful childbirths, surgery for one child at age 2, special needs disagnosis for the other, caring for two dying parents within 5 years of each other from cancer and parkinson's and I can honestly say it was menopause which brought me down the lowest.
I honestly thought I was dying and nobody seemed able to help, or even suggest to me that my symptoms might be menopause related.

That all sounds really tough and I am sorry that menopause is proving to be more challenging for you but anecdotal evidence suggests that most women have mild to moderate rather than extreme symptoms (of the type that put you in fear for your life).

In the context of this work related thread, I still think employers and employees should not need to make any special adjustments specifically for menopausal women (as they might, for example, for those caring for others or having just given birth). If you need medical help for symptoms, it's accessible and perhaps GPs need to advise how to manage them better but I don't think menopausal women should form some sort of special group because it works against the sex/age inclusivity which serves all women in the workplace. I appreciate others will disagree

Employ more fifty plus women so you don’t feel like an alien amongst 20 and 30 year old women and a few older men in management.

Whether leading or not just make it more common to see older faces.

Do core hours, flexibility, working from home. This will keep more women in employment meaning more 50 plus as they’ve stayed through the years when it can get hard.

I think it's really unhelpful to suggest that menopausal women should 'shut up and put up', as it were, rather like those with mental health issues used to have to .
I don't for one moment advocate forming special menopausal women categories, but it should just be another one of those things about which employers demonstrate an awareness/understanding, along with stress, mental health, maternity/paternity/ elder care etc.

Some really good information is available from this group: menopauseintheworkplace.co.uk/the-benefits/

And they make some useful observations, backed up by data, rather than just anecdotal eveidence:

75-80% of women (of menopausal age) experience menopausal symptoms, 25% severe
1 in 4 women had considered leaving work because they couldn’t cope with their menopause symptoms.

The cost to a company of losing/replacing/recruiting/training people is high and can be avoided if women get good, early support to seek help/ manage their symptoms.

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment...

Isn't the reason that women don't want to disclose their menopausal symptoms at work or be seen as 'menopausal' because of the negative stereotypes that menopause currently and historically carries?

There have been at least two successful employment tribunal against employers who have failed to make adjustments to compensate for the disabling effects of menopause on the claimants.

Trying to pretend that menopause doesn't have disabling effects on some women contributes to the culture of silence and 'putting up and shutting up'.

As mental health has become less taboo and stigmatised in the workplace (still a long way to go though...) I've been really aware of how much more seriously men are taken if they disclose a mental health problem or stress.

Attempting to keep menopause a secret seems to play in to this.

Put in place a concerted effort to interview and employ women over 40 or 50, especially those who may have taken a career break.

I see a number of women returner programmes but they can tend to be industry or skill specific or in London so not always accessible to many.

I found it difficult to get interviews for jobs once I turned 45 (yes, my career history is somewhat checkered by multiple international moves as a trailing spouse but I made sure I kept my skills up by freelancing)

Don't invite people aged 50 to retirement seminars , nearly 20 years until official retirement, unless you are really trying to get rid of them.

Sounds a very sensible time to me, to be talking to people about retirement. Well, in truth I would say it ought to happen 10 years previously.
There's no point in inviting people to talk about retirement planning when they only have 3,4, or 5 years to go - far too late to make a real difference.

I would not be impressed if someone started dictating that I ought to be needing adjustments for the menopause.
I've gone through it, and believe you me, it was nowhere near the most difficult time to be working.
In an ideal world, everybody would work in a workplace where the things being suggested (flexible working, working from home, etc), are available to everyone. Not for someone else to be deciding how I ought to feel at any stage of my life.

Backtogood I don't think anyone is suggesting that every woman needs or should have adjustments for the menopause, or that every woman needs to discuss it in the workplace.

It impacts women very differently, but it remains the fact that some women do experience disabling symptoms which does impact on their ability to do their job.

Given that we live far from an ideal world, the only way to ensure that employers are obliged to make the adjustments that individuals need is to legislate for it. And the only way that legislation or policies are And on the whole legislation and policies are created upon the evidence of data, which needs to be collected in order for this to happen.

Sorry, that was gobbledegoop.

Should have said - Given that we live far from an ideal world, the only way to ensure that employers are obliged to make the adjustments that individuals need is to legislate for it. And on the whole legislation and policies are created upon the evidence of data, which needs to be collected in order for this to happen.

Norma I see what you're saying, but if your line manager doesn't know why you've been off sick (or what you've decided to tell them), how can they make adjustments?

HR don't know the details of each individual's workload etc. If I was experiencing palpitations before doing presentations, despite having had no problem before, my workplace couldn't adjust my work schedule to accommodate this unless they knew how my difficulties impacted me at work.