What could employers do to better support those aged over 50?

[MumsnetJobsTeam]

Many people - especially women - find it harder to find work once they hit 50, particularly if they've had a career break. Even within the workplace older people can face discrimination, whether being passed over for promotion, treated with condescension, or expected to have the same needs and requirements as someone younger.

We'd love to get your thoughts on how older people are treated in the world of work. Do you think there is discrimination? In what ways are older people harmed by policies and attitudes? And most importantly, what can employers do to better support those over 50?

Mumsnet Jobs is committed to campaigning for greater flexibility and equity in the world of work, and so on February 25th, we'll be putting your comments to a group of top employers who have gathered at MNHQ to learn how they can improve.

I will manage menopause so that doesn't change

Try doing that when you wake up 16 times every night - for years on end and you forget what you’re doing every five minutes.

@NightsOfCabiria, your post is very useful. I would add to that flexible training that allows older workers to move into different areas within the company. One of the things I suffer from is terrible boredom; and i know my knowledge, skills and experience are valuable - but there is a real short termism in British companies which doesn’t offer nurturing/ training to us older ones, only to the younger ones.

@Fleetheart I agree with you about not offering nurturing/training to older staff (may apply to men too, I'm not sure). I am 52 and work in a much younger team and am so fed up being told my most important role is to share my "valuable experience" with younger staff. Sure, that's great for them but what about me? I think the courses that managers go on to learn "how to manage" are focussed on managing people at the start of their career and ignore anyone over the age of 30.

Don't invite people aged 50 to retirement seminars , nearly 20 years until official retirement, unless you are really trying to get rid of them.

Don't forget that caring duties extend beyond small children. Parental leave arrangements to cover looking after parents as well as being parents

Lots of people on MN still claim they will manage to retire before 60... anyway, retirement seminars are about planning & planning 20 yrs before retirement isn't so crazy. Could invite everyone in the company, to be fair, but the seminars (where I work) are run by private companies who charge for the service, so there are limited spaces, they have to prioritise older adults ... and encourage them since some haven't made any plans and their lack of planning could start to matter.

@NightsOfCabiria : 16x/night is precise. Is that hyperbole or are you keeping track with a sleep/activity tracker? I think I'm most impressed that you manage to get back to sleep 15x, I never could have done that.

Flexible working to help re ageing parents
Much harder to predict and manage than sorting childcare which I now realise was comparatively (!) accessible and available and sort of affordable

DH and I run our own business. Our eldest staff member is 69, working 4 days a week and the youngest is me aged 49!

We've had far more issues with younger members of staff than older ones, if anything they are the age range we aim to recruit due to life experience and maturity, as well as years of knowledge.

This has never affected me, but a couple of other pps have made the point about hot-desking. I can't imagine anything more annoying than not having the same chair each day, especially if you need one with suitable back support, and you've adjusted the height, backrest and arms to suit you.

@lljkk 16 times was the average for me. Sometimes it was every 15 minutes. I was asked to make notes and keep track of my symptoms by my GP (in her late twenties), as she didnt know a great deal about the menopause by her own admission. I thought I’d be one of the lucky ones who sailed through it as Ive always been slim, fit and health conscious. It was awful. Thank god for HRT.

@Fleetheart & @AuntieRae Couldn't agree more. We’re expected to give everything while receiving nothing in return bar thanks. If we’re expected to work until 68, then we need support in order to do that. I’ve been looking at courses since January and it’s so depressing that theyre all geared towards young people. I’m guessing it has to do with money as always, either non-viable numbers or lack of government funding. Easier fruit to pick.

This has never affected me, but a couple of other pps have made the point about hot-desking. I can't imagine anything more annoying than not having the same chair each day, especially if you need one with suitable back support, and you've adjusted the height, backrest and arms to suit you.

@dustibooks Where I work, we hot desking / smart-work every other buzzword imaginable and its so frustrating getting in each day to be confronted by a chair that was used the previous day by someone who moved the arm-rests to their most extreme/highest point, set the height to suit an obviously 6ft 5in giant bloke, etc, etc. I'm really fussy about having the right settings, and it can take 10 mins to get it sorted.

It is possible to have a Fixed Desk arrangement, but it's classed as a Reasonable Adjustment, which involves getting a GP letter to state you have muscular-skeletal problems. This will give you a reserved desk (people tend to be good citizens and leave a list of days when they need to desk each week) plus chair and you can put a label on the chair back stating the settings mustn't be adjusted.

It takes a lot of getting used to - my employer is better than many re: accommodating people's needs.

We've had far more issues with younger members of staff than older ones, if anything they are the age range we aim to recruit due to life experience and maturity, as well as years of knowledge

How do you manage to do that legally? You can't "aim" to recruit people of an age-group (age being a protected characteristic under the Equality Act legislation). That's like saying "we avoid women of childbearing age because they're bound to disappear off on mat leave after a year!"

Personally for me (53) I've been working throughout 2 children in senior jobs. It's enabled me to keep up my skills. I see other 50 plus women struggling with IT skills or the pace of work because they have been away too long from the workplace.

daisychain01 this is a thread about older people in the workplace, I was merely trying to point out that for us, age isn't an issue or an obstruction. Due to the bespoke high end nature of our business, we need staff with a lot of skill and experience which most younger people don't have any more as colleges long stopped teaching the trade. Skills are now learned on factory production lines - it's like comparing Ikea furniture with bespoke carpentry. The investment of time and money into training younger staff is difficult when you're running on a treadmill to keep up with the pace of work coming through the door. That alone is why we "aim" to recruit older staff.

Treat ageism as seriously as other 'isms' that disadvantage protected characteristics. Look at the career development patterns and training of women 50 plus compared to other groups, in particular women who have put their career on hold in some way through caring in your organisation. Use some of the mechanics that they know work with underdeveloped groups to benefit these women so that they can grow and contribute with equal opportunity in the last 17 years of their career.

Correction Look at the career development patterns and training of women 50 plus in your organization compared to other groups, in particular women who have put their career on hold in some way through caring.

Actively curtailing office cultures of expecting people to still be at their desks at 6.30pm, followed by working at home in the evenings and some weekend work (unless shift patterns obvs).

This discriminates against women as the primary carers of children and other family members and is also more difficult to maintain as we get older. Going through the menopause - which isn't optional for women - is not compatible with working these ridiculous days.

It's also good role modelling for younger staff, which will likely burn out or resent that this is their workplace norm as they (may) have children and get older.

A small thing that organisations can do easily and quickly is including 'menopause related symptom's in the 'reasons for absence' list, and actively encourage women to use it.

This will give them data which, along with qualitative research, will help them plan to better meet the needs of their workforce.

@AutumnCrow this is it in a nutshell!

I have a job but omg it was hard to get one, and I was only 45-47 when I was looking.

I will manage menopause so that [it] doesn't change

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

I'm sorry, but this is the most naive thing I've seen on MN for a long time

(Reminds me of my birth plan: "I will have a natural, vaginal delivery in a birthing pool" After many hours of labour and a failed ventouse I had a crash caesarean...)

Ageism is real, once you hit your late 40s it’s very, very difficult to get a job. They want young people that they can pay less and mould. Employers don’t necessarily value experience it’s a stumbling block. I e found this and friends of mine. Also menopause is really debilitating and a serious issue that needs to be considered along with oother health issues. Try working a full day in a demanding job when you’ve had no sleep and been awake all hours with night sweats night after night sweating so bad changing bedding & nightwear continually. Your mind is fogged and forgetful I used to have a photographic memory now I battle it’s awful. Then being in meetings and suddenly you have a hot flush go all red and sweat pouring off you...nice hey not! This is reality and it’s bloody tough

I can't think of anything more annoying than having to flag myself as ''menopausal'' at work. I have taken one day's AL to go and speak to a doctor and I got some tranexamic acid which helps alleviate one worry I had.

I'm sure there will be issues but it would make the problem of ageism worse. That is what literally signals employers right back to their own prejudices about women over 50 and makes them believe that a woman over 50 is older than a man over 50.

If you genuinely need to see a doctor you can see one, the doctor will sign you off. Do that. Don't make it harder for other 50+ women to find employment by signalling to employers that older women are going to be entitled to extra time off for menopause.

FGS! It's hard enough to get back in to the workplace.

Stop asking when I’m going to rehire !

Retire *

I know what @resipsa means, I've had symptoms, but I just do what I can to deal with them and crack on. i don't want to lose my job. I don't want to be viewed as menopausal. Even though I am.

To be honest, I think we need to move away from the situation where an employee needs to explain to a direct manager or co-workers why they have been off sick. Health issues of any sort ought to be confidential, and HR should manage sickness absence reporting.