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Is maternity leave sexist ?

360 replies

mozhe · 21/05/2007 00:38

I think so.....surely it should be parental leave that is available to both parents,( or maybe even members of the wider family network, like grandparents ? ), and there should be financial incentives to encourage both parents to take it. What do other people think ? Instead of trying to make maternity leave longer should we not focus on supporting parents back into work sooner and providing better/cheaper/more appropriate childcare...

OP posts:
Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 09:33

Mohze - are you a psychiatrist or a psychologist?

Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 09:34

or even a psychoanalyst?

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 09:35

monkeytrousers - Yes. It is self-evident that the political lobby wants women in their prime earning years to be in the workplace, not at home, for the country's short-term economic gain... as opposed to long-term human well-being...

Why women let themselves be brainwashed by a largely male political class is beyond me. It seems to be the greatest form of submission to men imaginable.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 09:43

monkeytrousers - Mozhe is a consultant psychiatrist, according to her profile.

I have nothing at all against psychiatry - that was my own mother's field. But I would expect someone of Mozhe age and qualifications to have a bit more perspective on humanity.

Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 10:11

doesn't say 'consultant' though agree re lack of insight - although sometimes privledge does that to people ?

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 10:44

monkeytrousers - sorry, you're right. But I did read on another post that Mozhe was a consultant psychiatrist.

I don't think that it is privilege that causes lack of insight so much as an ivory tower mentality - people who get so caught up in advancing their own careers within a given structure that they fail to take a proper look at the world around them. We all know plenty of people like that, surely - "specialists" in their field, who've read every last bit of literature written by their predecessors and peers, but who seem to have a very basic lack of common sense when relating to the real world because they are out of practice. Which all supports my strong beliefs in a good work-life balance, not just for an individual, but within a family system, so that the members of a family balance out their broad experiences of the world over time. Providing of course that they have enough time to sit down and talk.

pistachio · 24/05/2007 11:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 11:25

pistachio - totally agree on the long, chilled-out feeds - I love that part.

I have quite a few French friends here in Paris who didn't breastfeed until their 3rd or 4th child (breastfeeding has been so badly supported here, it took them a few babies to come round to the idea) and they all say that their relationship with their breastfed child(ren) is so much cuddlier and affectionate than with their bottlefed ones. My daughter is certainly very cuddly to all her family members.

mozhe · 24/05/2007 12:12

Pistachio....of course my DCs had those sorts of feeds too...in the evening/night and at weekends too.I keep my supply going for such a long time,( and it keeps it abundant too ), by increasing feeding at weekends...so no EBM then just straight b'fing...it does mean that my DTs,( very nearly one !!),breastfeed a lot, maybe every 1-2 hours at weekends....they have also just started on solid food too, so that might decrease a bit now,( tho' fav solid currently is camembert and baguette...we live in France !!)....come mondays I have a lot of milk and maybe express upto 4 times during working hours....by friday that might have gone down to once or twice.I've done it this way with all 5...and it seems to have worked ! They all put on weight slowly,( which can freak people out...), and are slightly smaller than average,( esp DTs, but they were 8 weeks prem...so really 9.5months adjusted ), but the DH and I are very slim too so you wouldn't expect podgy babes ! I continue then to b/f until at least 2, combined with solids increasing but don't intro cows milk until over 2,( ok in cooking etc but not great bottles/mugs of it )...So far eldest DCs have weaned completely from breast at 3.5yrs,3 yrs and 2.2 years...

OP posts:
Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 13:59

"but the DH and I are very slim too so you wouldn't expect podgy babes"
News to me - if you and your DH were victims of malnutrition maybe.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 14:07

monkeytrousers - I don't know. I'm quite curious about heredity and am always looking at children and parents and assessing whether they look alike. In my family, body type is pretty inherited IMO - I was staying with my sister last weekend and we were looking at all our children and trying to work out which bits came from which members of the family. My daughter has my body type exactly (and my mother and maternal grandmother had this before me) - tall and slim with quite wide hip and shoulder bones and any extra weight always on the thighs, never on the bottom, tummy or arms.

Aren't breastfed babies supposed to be slimmer than bottlefed?

mozhe · 24/05/2007 14:40

Yes to the breastfed children being less likely to be obese in childhood or as adults.....but as well as genetics there is the families eating habits to consider too. We recently stayed with a family where mum and dad were a bit overweight,( say 1-2 stones ), and I was amazed by how much they ate,( just huge portions....and a lot of meals/snacks too), and shovelled into their 4 children,( none overweight but only LOs still..).We probably eat a quarter of what they do....

OP posts:
Judy1234 · 24/05/2007 14:44

Coming back on to it now I think this thread has got a bit personal and it's as much my fault as anyone's. I certainly have no information to comment on your partner, Anna. I was surprised he wasn't living with you in the first year. That was all.

Judy1234 · 24/05/2007 14:46

Today's FT had this in which I was just reading on the train.

Are the women less motivated by money because they have men who pay for them?

"What works for women works for all

By Rosemary Berkery

Published: May 24 2007 03:00 | Last updated: May 24 2007 03:00

Many highly qualified women take a detour from their career paths because of personal responsibilities. But when they want to resume their jobs, they may find themselves stalled. Developing workplace policies and practices that help them get back on track is the focus of Sylvia Ann Hewlett's new book, Off-Ramps and On-Ramps.

To attract talent, she says, companies must work harder to retain women professionals. Diversity increases a business's competitive edge. Women achieve more than half of all professional and graduate degrees and will remain a significant portion of the workforce. Combine those facts with a tightening high-echelon labour market brought on by the retirement of baby boomers and the brain drain of departing foreign workers, and a talent void is opening up, Hewlett says. Yet finding on-ramps for talented "off-ramped" women who want to return to work can be difficult.

Part treatise, part call to action, Off-Ramps and On-Ramps urges companies to reverse the "female brain drain". Hewlett drives her arguments with data gathered by her Hidden Brain Drain Task Force of "leading-edge" companies and other sources, compelling accounts of high-achieving women executives who took time out because of family-related issues, and case studies from companies managing the issue successfully.

What Hewlett calls the "male competitive model" fails to work for many women professionals. It is characterised by cumulative careers and a continuous, linear employment history; emphasises full-time employment and face time at the office; expects the steepest gradient of a career to occur during one's thirties; and assumes most professionals are motivated primarily by money.

"While this career model suited the needs of Jack Welch and his peers, it's exceedingly problematic for women," Hewlett writes. A minority may bend their lives to fit the male competitive model, but many won't or can't.

Family demands are one reason many women may have non-linear careers as they take time off, cut their hours or telecommute. What's more, the decade when career demands are rising is precisely when child-rearing demands peak. Hewlett notes that women are also less driven by money than by other factors such as working with "high-quality colleagues", or "deriving meaning and purpose" from work.

Women seeking a return to their career are often sidelined by a business model that views career gaps with scepticism. The average leave is a mere 2.2 years, says Hewlett. However, many successful women executives struggle to get back on track after the short break. (It's worth noting that men who do the same might meet with the same result.)

The problem becomes even more urgent as the rise of "extreme jobs" - with tight deadlines, long hours, extensive travel and instant communication - may force more women to take off-ramps.

The solution, Hewlett says, is for companies to provide on-ramps and flexible work arrangements and reduce the stigma associated with them. Equally important are "arc-of-career flexibility" policies that allow women to ramp down when necessary and ramp up when desired, Hewlett says.

At Merrill Lynch, we offer flexible work arrangement options, such as telecommuting, compressed work weeks, flexible hours, and job-sharing. We are trying to address some of the more challenging issues posed by the extreme jobs that are a common feature of the financial services business. We also have a new daycare centre in New York, which provides full-time and back-up childcare, as well as help for all working parents that several high-achieving women have said made it possible for them to resume their careers.

Most of my female law school colleagues who had children did so in the 1980s and 1990s, a period well before any discussion of the possibility of off-ramp and on-ramp career paths. The choice most of us faced was: either stay home with our children and forsake (or severely derail) our careers or continue working while relinquishing the chance to be a significant part of our children's lives on weekdays.

The off-ramp, on-ramp career model, while challenging for businesses in which extreme jobs and intense client demands are the norm, opens up a world of opportunity for talented professionals. My recent experience in recruiting women graduates from business schools and law schools leads me to believe that those who successfully surmount the implementation challenge will quickly become the employers of choice and easily attract and retain the best and brightest women professionals.

The author makes the persuasive case for a new competitive model that takes into account the pressing needs of women employees. Women are often the "canaries in the coalmine", she says, for judging the effectiveness of talent management policies and practices. Doing what works for women professionals is good for everyone.

The writer is executive vice-president and general counsel of Merrill Lynch & Co"

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 14:46

Totally agree on eating habits. My partner's family eat so much more than my family - all my parents/grandparents are/were slim as rails whereas his were all overweight - definitely just overeating/underexercising in their case.

I do have to prep my mother to buy some extra food when we all go to stay as otherwise I'd have three starving males to deal with...

mozhe · 24/05/2007 14:46

Yes it has descended a bit....now we're discussing breastfeeding !!

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 15:03

Xenia - you may have been surprised that my partner and I didn't live together during our daughter's first year (for work/family reasons he had to be in France, I wanted to be in the UK for better birthing practices, to be near friends and family etc) but all I really wanted to illustrate was that it is not necessary for the paternal bond to even live in the same country during the first few months of a child's life. We did actually consult professionals about this before the birth, and I was reassured in no uncertain terms that it didn't matter in the slightest - it was much, much more important that the mother was happy and well supported than that the father was present. Whereas, if the mother wasn't present, that was very problematical (breastfeeding aside) - even if the father was present 100% of the time (which wasn't going to happen anyway).

However, the consensus was also that it shouldn't go on for more than a year if possible. Which it didn't - and we saw a lot more of him and my stepsons in the last 3/4 months, so that my daughter would be used to them being around.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 15:07

Xenia - I think women are less driven by money than men because they're less inclined to want very expensive toys (Ferraris, planes, yachts etc) and more inclined to want to give something meaningful to society...

Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 15:07

Anna, like most things it's a complex interplay between genes and environment.

Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 15:13

(But on a personal note, both me and DS's father are slim and medium height but DS (breastfed) was 10.4 at birth, was a very chubby baby and is now a tall toddler.

Monkeytrousers · 24/05/2007 15:16

That's because expensive toys are explicit indicators of good resource gathering skills; what men do to attract women. The only real way it would benefit women is if they are lesbians.

If you are a woman trying to attract a good (male) mate via these things, chances are you'll have less luck than someone with youth and looks on their side.

pistachio · 24/05/2007 15:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 15:24

monkeytrousers - I don't know, most of the men I know with Ferraris, Maseratis, planes etc just think they are fantastic toys to play with, don't keep them long but have fun while they do. It's a real boy thing, like shopping for clothes and make-up is a girl thing, doesn't necessarily mean that you are mate hunting...

Eleusis · 24/05/2007 15:39

Hmmm... I'd like a ferrari. Oh that would be fun.

Anna8888 · 24/05/2007 15:42

My neighbour (same floor) gave me and my daughter a lift to Saint-Germain-des-Prés in his Maserati a few days ago. Unfortunately my daughter screamed for the first ten minutes and my partner hasn't let me here the last of it...