Is maternity leave sexist ?

[mozhe]

I think so.....surely it should be parental leave that is available to both parents,( or maybe even members of the wider family network, like grandparents ? ), and there should be financial incentives to encourage both parents to take it. What do other people think ? Instead of trying to make maternity leave longer should we not focus on supporting parents back into work sooner and providing better/cheaper/more appropriate childcare...

The bond between mother and child is a very special thing. Nature has made it so.

I don't think men have a right to be pregnant, give birth, or breast feed. You are being silly now.

But, I do think they have a right to be fathers after the child is born.

Of course the bond between mother and child is special. And of course the bond between father and child is also special. It may include different bonding activities. But, it is still special.

Eleusis - what I am trying to illustrate is that I don't believe (on the basis of all I have read, heard, seen) that a mother's exclusive biological role in childbearing is over the minute she has given birth.

I believe that pregnancy, child birth, breastfeeding form part of a continuum where the mother is the best primary carer, and that a baby, given the chance, separates in a natural, untraumatic way from its mother during its first years until it learns to talk sufficiently well that it can be understood by the outside world beyond its immediate family, and can join in with a group of its peers (with adult supervision) for short periods that increase over time until it becomes an independent adult.

I believe that early return to paid work by mothers interferes with this natural process and causes stress and trauma to many children (and mothers) that has expensive repercussions for individuals and society.

I certainly don't blame mothers for that early return to paid work - it is, by and large, NOT their fault, just a survival response to deeply misguided social policy and cultural environment.

I do believe that a properly progressive society would ensure that women retain proper economic security and the ability to return to work in a job suited to her skills and abilities once her child(ren) had attained a sufficient degree of indendence to be safely placed in a group setting outside the home.

I suppose what I am trying to say is, women have evolved to be maternal, generally speaking, and are subject to all the hormones that encourage this. Men do not have that pysical reaction. They dont carry children iside them for 9 months and go through the pysical changes of labour, birth and the aftermath.

I'm not saying their bond with their child isn't special, but it is very different.

On fathers - of course I believe they are critical to a child's well-being and upbringing. They are not, however, substitute mothers (or grandmothers), ready to step in and do everything a mother does when she feels like have a break. Lots of men, quite rightly hate being used as servants by their wives, and it makes them into bad fathers, unable to impose their own authority.

Maternity leave isn't sexist; as people have already said, only women that can have babies. The amount of time taken out of the legal maximum, however, is entirely up to the individual....if a woman wants to work right up to her due date she can, and she can go back a minimum of two weeks afterwards.
Personally, I can't understand why women would want to do that; being the work shy fop that I am, I want all the time off that I can get

As for the points about it being parental leave, I'm sure that I read somewhere when beefing up on it recently that there are government plans to make it shared in the pipeline (but I may have just dreamt that up myself )

I'm not suggesting that men be forced to go home and be mothers. I am saying that they should have a legal right to say six weeks off to be a father just as I have a right to six weeks off to be a mother.

No one has the right to make other people's parenting choices(within reason -- obviously if a child's life is at risk authorities should intervene). Anna, you think it's important to stay home until they can speak well. Fine, it's your child and your family. I, on the other hand have different priorities. I don't think my working full time is harming my kids. I think it benefits them. And that is my choice. Your parner doesn't wish to be there for the birth or see the child for 3 weeks. I find that odd, but again his choice not mine.

I tink father should have the choice to stay home for 90% of their pay for six weeks if they want to. Why is this a problem?

Eleusis - your proposed paternity leave model is a problem because:

(a) disruptive for employers
(b) expensive to society
(c) of little benefit to mother or child, both of whom are physically and emotionally benefiting from "lying-in" for want better term

Personally I think paternity leave is a huge self-indulgence for men.

Anna ! What bunkum ! What ' critical biological role in childrearing ' ? Sientific ? LOL...BUT I do agree with your post of 11:47, of course parents should get a grip and take responsability for their children,surely you are not implying that WOHMs don't ?
Daydreamer...Shocking ? This thread has provoked some interesting discussion...perhaps you should potter off tothe thread that relentlessly lists what SAHMS did at home today....it will be less shocking for you, but maybe less interesting..Of course I am a caring/sensitive person,( why the hell would I be in the job I am in if I just wanted to be horrid to people ?),I have strongly held opinions,( a few other people around here do too..),they inform my work of course but I don't think colleagues/patients would confirm your 'suspicions' about me
Pistachio...You can b/f and blw too,EVEN if you work fulltime..I do. I might just start a thread about that...altho' may get slated for upsetting all the sahms if I do as some clearly think this is their preserve !
Rattleskuttle- childbirth should not be equated to a major op ! Unless of course you have a c/s....otherwise no, it is a normal/natural part of a woman's life.
Eleusis- excellent posts ! Yes please do intro me to your DH nothing I enjoy more than discussing this stuff with men....seriously though often find them much more receptive to new ways of doing things than some women....Oh and don't worry re; slander....it's water off a duck's back ! Plus enough lawyers hanging around too

No, absolutely not implying that WOHMs don't take responsibility for their children. However, expecting the state/wider society to pay for paternity leave is ridiculous. Parents decide together to have a child, it is not for society as a whole to pay for paternity leave that has no material benefit either to the individual, to the family or to wider society.

What's the father supposed to do for the mother and child FGS? Plump pillows? I'd be turned off forever by that... man would lose all sex appeal...

Thos same arguments could be used against maternity leave:

(a) disruptive for employers.
(b) expensive to society.
(c) of little benefit to father or child.

Although, the father isn't staying home to take care of the mother, he is there to look aft his child. Paternity leave is for fathers, not for husbands.

(a) maternity and paternity leave are both disruptive for employers. However, if only women take leave, far fewer employees are in and out of employment, so there is less disruption overall

(b) society also incurs a great deal of expense when young children are not cared for by their mothers (worse health of children because of less breastfeeding, subsidised childcare, more disruptive early life causing later mental health issues etc)

(c) maternity leave has real benefits for the child AND the mother (breastfeeding, rest, etc).

As for fathers looking after a young baby singlehandedly... only if you don't breastfeed... which I think is terribly wrong unless you have health issues that prevent you from doing so.

mozhe - all other things aside, I don't buy "I am a doctor ergo I must be a caring/sensitive person". I know plenty of doctors who haven't got a caring bone in their body. Their motivation is somewhere else entirely.

May I direct your attention SAHD returning to work See. Dads can stay home too.

Eleusis - I can put my child in a nursery for 10 hours a day. I can give my child McDonald's every day for supper. I can smoke 60 cigarettes a day. I can have sex with the neighbour while my partner is out at work.

Society permits all those things. It doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Anna, you continue to state your opinion as fact. You should try accepting that other peoples views are just as valid and appropriate for their family as yours are for your family.

Your response to (b) is not proven, and I do not consider your claims to be fact. For example, I do not believe that my working will cause mental health problems for my children in the future.

Xenia - your experience is only one, unusual, one from someone who was either misinformed or dishonest - that doesn't apply to everyone. Most HR departments, and that includes everyone that has a say in hiring, won't behave like that and will hire on the basis of getting the job done.

Eleusis - sorry but I'm not sure you can claim you're on planet Earth in the slightest! How can you assume a nanny will be better than a mother just because she doesn't do housework?? Every day thousands of mothers manage to cleverly balance giving one-on-one time to their dc and juggling housework. And if they aren't giving every single second to their dc it doesn't mean they're neglecting them!! I used to do the housework when dd was asleep, some people do it at night, some people have help - it doesn't have to mean one-on-one care is lost!!!! Also, what about quality of care? A nanny could be fantastic for a 5mo who is confident and used to new people, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll suit a 2 week old for who their mother is the only known constant.

And sorry to be 'sexist' but I'll repeat what I said before - a baby takes 9 months getting to know it's mother biologically (ie smell, hormones etc) - that is scientifically proved. So when it is born, its father may be just as interested and capable as its mother but the mother is the one it knows and needs to be with until gets used to other things around it.

Long thread, haven't had time to read it all

I think maternity leave IS sexist, and I think paternity leave should be much longer - on a par with maternity leave perhaps. That would take away one of the 'reasons' why women are sometimes discriminated against in the recruitment process. also that way businesses would have to find a better way of covering mat(/pat) leave than most currently do. Plus of course it recognises the equal contribution men should (and in most cases want) to make to looking after their children

Eleusis, I gave three examples in (b).

The issue of worse physical health in non breastfed children is a big deal here in France. I'll give one illustration. There is a huge issue surrounding "bronchiolite" (an infectious respiratory infection that affects babies) which causes lots of expense and child ill health every winter as parents pitch up at A&E with desperately ill children. Breastfed children have only 20% the likelihood of catching this disease that bottlefed babies have.

But there is reams of evidence for the health protective benefits of breastfeeding - which of course translates into better health and lower health care costs for society.

Subsidised childcare is also hugely expensive to society (the taxpayer). If you read the newspapers, you know the debate. If you don't read newspapers, try The Economist.

As for child mental health - there is masses of debate surrounding the effects of early years childcare versus maternal care. Personally, having read widely on the subject and seeing the society around me, I wouldn't take the risk with my child. Of course, it is a personal choice, and you may be willing to take the risk.

So, I should potter off Mozhe, and anyone who criticises your aggressive belittling boastful comments and blanket condemnation of women who choose to devote time to the whole process of being a mum should keep their opinions to themselves and p**s off and make patchwork quilts? I dont think so!
Look it is obviously interesting to discuss the way maternity/paternity leave is divvied out. But what has got my goat is your comments about women 'trying it on' when taking mat leave, being self indulgent taking it so they can 'lie around on a heap of pillows'. All this is probably standard unspoken opinion amongst various childless male employers. Changing their attitudes is hard enough without steely supermums joining in their sniggers at the patheticness of women in general.

And I dont agree at all that babies should be abandoned to paid help asap. Unless circumstances are such that it cant be helped. But obviously there are different ideas on this and its important that women try to respect each others ideas regarding family values. Not everyone puts paid work quite so high up on their hierarchy.

I'm sure someone's said this but they raised the time to 6 months at the same time that they published the WHO recommendations to Breastfeed exclusively for 6 monts - and that has to be Mum. After then I agree Dad's should have right to take time off. I think there is an entitlement for unpaud leave isn't there?

WK007, I wasn't really arguing that nannies are better than mother's an you know it. I was just pointing out that may be a good and suitable solution for people who do need/want to return to work.

I don't think people who choose to be SAHM are wrong. It isn't for me. And I believe my choices are what is best for my family. But, I don't go around telling SAHMs that they causing their children harm by staying at home. That is just plain rude. And I think people should rise above such behaviour.

daydreambeliever - no, you should stay right here on this thread. You were quite right to stand up to Mozhe. She ought to be ashamed of herself. But she can't be. Her lack of self-awareness is quite staggering and given her profession, worrying in the extreme.

How someone who claims to be a consultant psychiatrist (a little hard to believe, given her terrible analytical skills) can think that bullying others on MN is an appropriate/responsible form of behaviour risks putting her whole profession in disrepute IMO.

Eleusis - there is nothing rude about believing, on the basis of informed opinion, that it is better for children's physical and mental health, to stay at home with them in the early years.

Is there something rude about saying "I don't believe in God* to a committed Christian? I don't believe that's any ruder than the committed Christian telling me that he/she does believe in God.