Is maternity leave sexist ?

[mozhe]

I think so.....surely it should be parental leave that is available to both parents,( or maybe even members of the wider family network, like grandparents ? ), and there should be financial incentives to encourage both parents to take it. What do other people think ? Instead of trying to make maternity leave longer should we not focus on supporting parents back into work sooner and providing better/cheaper/more appropriate childcare...

Oh good grief. How very petty of you Anna. Are you actually qualified to judge Mohze's professional qualifications?

I think I ought to be working....

Eleusis - I am judging her behaviour on Mumsnet. I would expect someone of her professional standing not to bully others mercilessly.

No Anna, but there is something rude about saying "I don't believe in God and you are an idiot for doing so" to a commited Christian (or any other religeon).

You are not merely stating that you have chosen to stay home for reasons x, y, and Z. Rather you are saying that WOHM have harmed their children by doing X, Y, and Z when in fact X , Y, and Z are your opinions, and not widely accepted fact.

Regarding breastfeeding, I have already said it is best. So, why are you arguing the same point?

I worked fulltime after having ds1 and ds2 and work 4 days per week after having ds3. Thanks to my trusty breast pump neither ds2 nor ds3 ever had a drop of formula. ( With ds1 I expressed but didn't have such a good pump so he occasionally got formula. Ds3 is now still bf at 2.5. Breastfeeding and working are not mutually exclusive.

Eleusis - I actually got the distinct impression you were saying a nanny that didn't do housework was better for a baby than a mother that did housework.

Yes everyone has to do what they feel is right, but this discussion is all about what we each think is right. I happen to think that a baby needs its mother (not father or nanny) as the F/T carer for at least the first month. This is backed up by solid evidence, as other posters have pointed out. I wouldn't attack someone for their choice, we all have to live our own lives, but just because you're free to make your own choice doesn't mean you're going to make a perfect choice every time and I can't pretend a certain choice is right just to avoid upsetting someone!!!

And in saying this I do appreciate their are exceptions, eg if a mother has to go back to work or else her child would starve or someone else has to care for a newborn because the mother is unable to due to health problems. But that doesn't change the general point.

WK, yeah ok, in the first month I can accept that. But, Anna is talking about the first 3 or 4 years. My DD is 4 and her father can look after her as well as I can. There are some things I do better and there are some things he does better.

Eleusis - I didn't use the word "idiot" anywhere. Don't put rude words in my mouth that I have not used.

The ONLY issue that divides your opinion and mine, as far as I can see, is that I believe that children, as far as this is materially possible, need their mother's almost constant presence in the early years and I am not prepared to take a risk with my child's well-being by doing other than staying with her.

I never said "Your child will be harmed by your working". I did say you are prepared to take a risk that I am not prepared to take. That is presumably because you do not think that that risk is as great as I do. That's opinion, and I'm fine with that.

What's so terrible about that?

Unless (and this is my suspicion, because why otherwise would you be so sensitive about this issue) you actually do feel much worse about leaving your children than you admit to.

HR statistically has the highest number of women employed in it - no prejudice there

Well Eleusis, Xenia never tires of saying that any job is more imporatant than the job of being a mother - how sexist is that?

Monkeytrousers - totally sexist (anti-women).

The kind of women that side with the worst sort of macho men, belittling motherhood and all childcare, and try to bully other women into accepting their stance, make my blood boil. Women will get precisely nowhere out of such a stance, apart from having to adopt male behaviours in every aspect of life.

I'm in the "defence of the value of motherhood" camp and very proud of it.

What, am I responsible for the things Xenia says? I don't agree with everything she says, you know.

For example, I don't like retuning to work when the baby is 2 months old. I did with DD, but only because I really needed the money to pay the rent. I think somewhere around 3-6 months is the right amount of time to take off.

oops, that we meant to say 2 weeks, not months.

But that's the point E; you shouldn't be prescribing anything to other women, simply because it sounds okay to you.

Eleusis - I'm confused but need to know. You went back to work after two weeks?

I think it is up to the individual mother whether she wants to return to work or not. She certainly shouldn't be made to feel like her choice is the wrong choice to make.

Icing - but surely you think that women ought to be allowed to defend their own choices?

Icing, in reality many women don't have a choice.
But Anna you'are just at completely the other extreme. You don't even have the normal UK very involved father thing going onl..fine but it's one of the worst most exploitative models there is and is very bad for father and child relationships too. I think most UK couples have much more involvement, many women work and many men regularly are doing sole care of babies in 2007 in the UK but obviously not in France.

These English men are bonded and close. Bonding is basically time spent and all kinds of people bond with others. Scandinavian fathers who happened to do most of the child care experienced the same separation anxiety first time they left their children at nursery as stay at home mothers did, whereas working fathers were just interested in things like is the creche clean and safe not how bear can I part myself from this attached other. I just don't agree that under 3s have to have their mother as sole primary carer or even that all women are suited to being there 24/7, I certainly wasn't. Also anyone with more than one child and no help (i.e. most of the country) has a very different experience with their 2nd + chidlren because you're having to ignore either baby or toddler needs on a regular basis (it was interesting with twins too) which arguably can benefit the child actually.

?I think most UK couples have much more involvement, many women work and many men regularly are doing sole care of babies in 2007 in the UK but obviously not in France.?

But this means nothing; it?s simply rhetoric. Many men are, but most are not, and not because of any discriminatory system, but by choice ? male and female choice.

Of course bonding occurs with whoever is primary carer ? both ways; of course men who are primary carers feel that wrench, do their jobs re safety, risk assessment and childcare choices. Scandinavian fathers are no different from British fathers in this respect. Fathers who are not primary carers experience separation anxiety anyway, they may well throw that energy into practicalities?it?s a common coping strategy and it?s also a positive contribution to a partnership.

Under 3?s don?t have to have their mothers as primary carers ? I am certainly not saying that. What should be happening is that policy supports couples to make the right decisions based on their needs and circumstances.

I?m not saying women should be there 24/7 ? another false dichotomy from you. Motherhood should not automatically mean endless domesticity and intellectual stagnation ? it?s that way at the moment because society undervalues motherhood itself ? not because it is a natural condition of motherhood.

We all know your story, the reasons for you taking a different path from the statistical norm will be many and varied. All I ever ask is that you extend the same amount of conscious agency you had to others in the same situation, even when their choices differ from yours.

Absolutely icing, every family should have the opportuinty to make the choice which suits them. And if that choice is for the mother to take say four weeks to recover from the birth and then the dad to stay home for 8 weeks, then that should be available to them. I'm not suggesting that women who don't want to work should be forced to. I am saying Dads who want to stay home should have the benefits on offer that women have.

There have been valid points made much earlier about the mother needing time to physically recover and establish breast feeding. And of course yes, that is true. But once she is recovered and wants to go back to work she should be able to do so.

Yes, I went back to work two weeks after my first child was born. I was working contract and didn't get a single penny of maternity pay. So, off to work I went. It would have been nice to stay home for a few months, but it wasn't an option.

Xenia, did I read this right, you have described Anna's home situation as 'one of the worst exploitative models there is' ? and 'very bad for father and child relationships'.

No-one has criticized your parenting situation, even those who dont agree with your decisions make it clear that they respect there are many ways of doing this. What youve said to Anna is out of order.

Bottom line- its never easy, however its done, we need more mutual support for each other and respect for each others parenting styles. All the infighting by the very people who should respect each others contributions to society is stupid.

Anna, just read your post about biology and I wanted to back you up with regard to Mozhe's response.

There is a mountain of scientific (real hard scientific) evidence that women are more biologically predisposed to be primary carer, and this is backed up by facts in the field, in every culture on earth.

A minority of women buck this trend but the vast majority do not.

It most certainly isn;t 'bunkum'.

Show me to the mountain, please.

Children not cared for exclusively by their mothers are not in worse health than those cared for just by mother..and there's no research to support your theory, Anna, that the children of WOHMS will suffer mental ill health in later life.However being very controlling as a parent,and have an environment of hgh expressed emotion that is unpredictable, now...that can. You can b/f and work....millions of women the world over do so sucessfully, myself included.

What analytical skills are you referring to ? I'm not an analyst,( about as far away professionally as is poss to be...),quite different to a psychiatrist.

I don't think I 've bullied anyone, but of course i have said things which people strongly disagree with...you have too Anna, and I don't think of you as a bully.I don't agree with you but I am interested in what you and all MNetters have to say....try not to get too hot under the collar !

We're entitled to say if we think a home situation with father not even there in the first year etc might not be ideal just as she is free to say mother back to work in 2 weeks is damaging. I don't think either "camp" has been any worse than the other. What a lot of women want to change is the situation where women are exploited by men and take risks by putting their financial all into a man, living off his income and not both contributing to the children and the finances in a balanced way that most UK parents do manage (given more women of under 5s work than don't both in the UK now, historically and the world over).