Is maternity leave sexist ?

[mozhe]

I think so.....surely it should be parental leave that is available to both parents,( or maybe even members of the wider family network, like grandparents ? ), and there should be financial incentives to encourage both parents to take it. What do other people think ? Instead of trying to make maternity leave longer should we not focus on supporting parents back into work sooner and providing better/cheaper/more appropriate childcare...

Eleusis - women have a critical bioligical role in child bearing AND child rearing. It is unscientific to claim the contrary.

Xenia - I don't think that you as a single mother of five children of school and university age, and I (as I was) as a mother of one small baby are quite comparable. Your circumstances sound very difficult. Personally I was extremely glad not to have to shoulder responsibilities for anyone other than myself and my baby in the first months. But I don't particularly want to go into details - all that I think, based on my own experience, is that mothers need lots of time in order to look after themselves and their babies in the first year, that fathers don't need to spend much time with their tiny babies in order to bond with them or provide for them, and that long paternity leave is at best a bit silly and at worst does a huge disservice to mothers and babies.

Actually throughout history it has generally been accepted that women can give up their responsibilities to everyone else in the first few weeks after having a baby. Hence the invention of the "lying-in" period in our culture (and similar periods of rest and recuperation and bonding time with the baby for women in other cultures), the decline of which is most regrettable imo.

Xenia - loo scrubbing is housework, not child rearing. Let us not confuse the two, ENTIRELY different, roles. Changing nappies is a very minor part of childcare and it doesn't matter who does it as long, in my opinion, it is one of a very few kind and trusted carers.

Do you ever feel that, just perhaps, there are things you don't know about early childhood because you weren't there all the time?

GSS - yes, lying in is dying out and more's the pity, women (and children) are losing out hugely. Personally I lay in for the first six weeks and it was wonderful. I had lots of admiring visitors and presents so didn't get bored or lonely for a moment, breastfeeding was a breeze and I recovered very quickly from giving birth.

child rearing can be done by biological mothers, biological fathers, adoptive parents, other relatives, etc. Beyond breast milk (which can be given by others in a bottle) there is nothing about mothering that is biological. Father can love their children and bond with them just as well as mothers. And, many people choose to bottle feed. So, there is no advantage to being a woman.

I think Xenia's point about loo scrubbing is valid because often women who want to stay home to do the child rearing also end up doing the housework.

Breastfeeding is about far more than just the quality of the milk, as anyone who has breastfed a baby for a few months will know.

I think that it suits politicians and some people to think that it doesn't matter who a baby spends its day with (with the usual proviso that they are kind, attentive etc). Personally, based on extensive reading, I think that this is brain washing of the highest order.

Eleusis - no, it is not valid to equate loo scrubbing with child rearing just because, quite often, the same person takes on both roles. On the contrary, you greatly devalue child rearing by doing so. It makes not the blindest bit of difference to a child whether its mother or anyone else scrubs the loo, cleans the windows, does the ironing or any other number of myriad household tasks WHERE THERE IS NO INTERACTION with the child. However, it DOES make a huge difference to a child to know whether its mother, or someone else, feeds it, clothes it, washes it, talks to it, comforts it, puts it to sleep, is there when it wakes up, plays with it...

Brainwashing? Now I think that is an unscientific claim.

I don't believe that a woman should be sentenced to life without a career because SOME people think she is biologically better suited to look after the kids. I think she should have the same oppotunities as a man to choose the course she prefers. And I think a man should have the same opportunities. And the only way for them to have the same opportunities if for them to have the same employment benefits.

I'm also slightly surprised by Anna's approach. My babies have never been just that - they have always been "our" babies - my dh wanted to bond with them when they were new as much as I did - and particularly for the first it was a really special time for us - the creation of a new family unit from what had really been two individuals before the birth.

I realise that your baby wasn't your dp's first so maybe that makes a difference.

Eleusis - again, I think you are confusing issues.

I never said that women should be "sentenced to a life without a career". What I said, and believe, is that babies need their mother's pretty much constant presence in the early years (until they can talk well enough to make themselves understood in the outside world, IMO).

That doesn't per se condemn women to a life without work. But it does imply a re-thinking of work. And we are not there yet.

Also, Anna, a woman who can not afford to pay a cleaner will neglecting the child while she scrubs the loos. So, in reality, people who stay hometo be wtih their children could in fact be keeping that child from having one to one care. Whereas a parent who goes to work and hires a nanny does provide one to one care all day long because the nanny does not do housework.

So, your arguments really only old for wealthy stay at home mums. Most people don't live in that world.

Oh, but anna that way of thinking contributes to women being pushed out of rewarding careers and they end up chucking in the towel and letting the man provide.... until he leaves and defaults on his child support.

I am not confused. Please don't suggest I am just because I disagree.

MrsWobble - it was really special for us, too, and when we were all three together it was fantastic because we put absolutely everything else aside and were truly together. My partner, who obviously has another, completely different, childbirth model to compare experiences with, is quite clear that he thinks our daughter has received far better care and attention from everyone close to her, including from him, than his sons ever did.

Eleusis - you are confused because you are caught up in the man-made and UK system in which you live rather than in the biological interaction between humans.

Imagine you lived in a society where childbearing and childrearing are revered as the most important part of life and that society provided (economically) for women to devote several years to the proper rearing of each child...

Eleusis - on the housework issue - I have a cleaner but I also do quite a bit of housework as I am a clean and tidy person. I don't think I'm ignoring my child while doing it - she often joins in. As she does when the cleaner is around - often she'd rather talk to her (novelty value) than to me, even though I'm available.

"Imagine you lived in a society where childbearing and childrearing are revered as the most important part of life and that society provided (economically) for women to devote several years to the proper rearing of each child..."

Maybe on planet Anna.

I am not confused and there is ample human interaction on my Planet (Earth).

Anna, could you provide some scientific evidence which shows that all women are better suited to childrearing than all men in the early years?

If not, what gives you or anyone else the right to deny men of their early fatherhood?

Eleusis - look at the title of this thread, "Is maternity leave sexist?". That's an open question for discussion, not a discussion of the mechanics of UK employment and equality legislation and practice.

Eleusis - the breastfeeding argument does it for me alone. Only the mother can breastfeed, breastfeeding is best (we don't need to go into this...) for at least first two years, breastfeeding furthermore releases hormones that incite a mother to nurture her child...

Eleusis - in your opinion, who or what denies fathers the right to be pregnant, give birth and breastfeed? And what do you think should be done about it?

Of course men can be fantastic parents, but not mothers.

I mean, they can't BE mothers LOL

What about mums who choose not to or are unable to breast feed? Whilst I agree that breast is better than bottle for many reason, it is a choice and people do have the right to choose fomula if they so wish.

And, there is far more to childrearing than breast feeding. Are there more things which you think make the father inferior?