Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Help - any City lawyers thinking of not going back to work?

160 replies

muffinchops · 10/05/2004 11:23

I am coming to the end of my maternity leave and am a senior litigation assistant with a large City firm. My dh is a corporate lawyer with another City firm and will be going for partnership over the next year and so, effectively will not be around.

I enjoy my job but since I had my ds who is now 8 months, I am an emotional wreck about leaving him. My firm is not flexible-worker friendly and, realistically, I cannot see how I could fulfill my role on a part time basis. I already feel bad for taking my full year's entitlement.

If I don't go back, I will have to carve out a new role somehow as I need to do something for me having worked so long and hard to get where I am today.

There's certainly an argument for trying going back and see how it pans out. Am going mad though with indecision and am adept at convincing myself one way and then the other (handy legal skill!!)

Am not a sahm type, but adore spending time with my ds and would just need to think of other things I could do.

Am lining up a meeting with my boss, hopefully this week in order to stop myself procrastinating further and in an attempt to move forward and make a decision.

Would love to hear from any like-minded bods who know the score re life in a City law firm.

OP posts:
MrsWobble · 13/05/2004 16:18

not sure that this is going to be a helpful post and must confess to being a bit worried about setting myself up in opposition to Issymum and her army of fans but here goes anyway.

Think about what you want to be doing in 5 years time - babyhood doesn't last for ever. Yes you do miss out on time with them now but life is full of compromises and I don't feel I love my children less because I didn't change every nappy etc. More importantly, they don't feel I love them any less because I didn't.

I get enormous job satisfaction - I love what I do and think that I'm good at what I do and don't want to lose the sense of worth it gives me. I don't mean that I don't get satisfaction from my children but I think that I have found a way that lets me have both to some degree.

I felt very strongly that I had worked really hard to get into a good position at work and why should I lose it all because of parenthood - none of my male colleagues had to.

I think I became much better at my job through being a mother - I learnt to delegate and prioritise and became far more challenging of deadlines and requests - there's a lot of work that doesn't really need to be done by me, done now or sometimes even done at all.

My children are now at school and in any case as they grow up they become more independent. I know that I still miss out because I see a lot less of them than I would if I was at home but I'm not convinced that they miss out a lot. I prioritise them at weekends - it takes a massive crisis for me to bring work home. Because I work we are financially much better off - I pay people to do housework etc so the time I am at home is spent doing things we all want to do.

My relationship with my husband is good - we discuss our days/problems/successes and understand the pressures and issues we each face (he works in the City as well). We have the money to spoil ourselves and the children with really nice holidays etc. Of course we're exhausted half the time (at least) but as Issymum pointed out that goes with having children whether or not you work and it does get easier as they get older.

Finally, and I'm not sure quite how to explain this but I have three girls and really want them to feel that their opportunities and horizons are limitless - my mother was an academic and I saw her really struggle to be taken seriously by people (men) with far inferior qualifications to hers because she chose to stay at home while her children were small. I know things have moved on but even so I really want my girls to look back and wonder why anyone ever thought there was a glass ceiling. I know this is probably wishful thinking and hopelessly naive.

I'm also aware that I've been incredibly lucky with my girls, my childcare and my job and that it's not as easy or even possible for everyone. Sorry this is so long - I'll shut up now and get on with some work.

dinosaur · 13/05/2004 16:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Issymum · 13/05/2004 16:49

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request

binkie · 13/05/2004 16:52

And just to add - reason I thought Issymum's post so good is because it dealt very frankly with some very particular worries and ambivalences that I also thought I saw in Muffinchops's messages. Your message, on the other hand, is just what someone like me (I say selfishly) needs, who has chosen the near-enough full-time fee-earning route but still really needs bolstering.

TurnAgainCat · 13/05/2004 18:09

One of the best things about my workplace is that every mother has handled it differently, so there is little pressure on us to conform. Admittedly, we are very lucky and not typical in our profession to have male colleagues and clerks who are supportive of this. Ironically, nearly all their wives stay at home although highly qualified professionals. We are all doing the same basic job, at a wide range of seniorities, but each person controls the number of cases they take on. Maternity leaves ranged from 4 months to 8 years, and returns to work ranged from full-time including cases away from London and late night stints, full-time but refuse to stay away from home or accept cases which involve all-nighters (me, though must confess to taking documents home/ making calls now and then when all are sleeping), 4 days a week, 3 days a week, and one woman with three children moved far from London for her partner's job, the country life, and good schools but now has a pied-a-terre where she stays in London midweek. Some of us use nurseries, some use after school childminders, some use live-in nannies, and some use live-out nannies. We all earn and spend different amounts based on these choices, but our professional reputations are not based directly on earnings. Two are single mothers, and the rest are married to professional men who work full-time. I think it would be really interesting to have a meet up.

princesspeahead · 13/05/2004 18:23

I bow to motherinferior's bigger fanny....
Meet up would be entertaining. If somewhat noisy. I'm sure all of us can talk the hind leg off a donkey - Issymum and I certainly can - it's what we've been trained to do, isn't it?!

Off to find serene's domestic help thread... haven't seen it yet...

muffinchops · 13/05/2004 19:01

Only wish I'd discovered this months ago!

Mmmmm was starting to feel a tad guilty from detracting you go getters from your go getting! I have a great image in my head of everyone earnestly tapping away under the auspices of a work critical e-mail/document whilst working on a cyber revolution.

OP posts:
pollyanna · 13/05/2004 20:09

belatedly - brilliant post issymum, and also MrsWobble. This thread really rings a bell with me too. As I posted lower down, I have simply given up the battle for a little while - but I miss my job, my independence, and the money!Also, as a mother of 2 girls (and a boy) I do feel that I should be showing them a positive picture of a working mother - but with a junior partner as a husband, one of us needed to be around more. I hope I can find a part time job which allows me to combine it all successfully, and that, after some time off, I can get back on the ladder again. (btw, Muffinchops, when I was in your position, I simply had baby no2 quite quickly after no 1 - not the easiest way of solving the problem!)

Jimjams · 13/05/2004 20:23

ROFL @ Issymum. That should be published! Fantastic.

serenequeen · 13/05/2004 20:33

it's late and perhaps i'm not getting it, but i don't see where mrswobble's post diverges from issymum's so much... are you saying that you think the "6.1" scenario is what you have? if so, do you think you could do it without a supportive husband? sorry, muffinchops, i will stop going on about your absentee dh now! sorry, mrswobble if i haven't understood you correctly, i just don't see where the "disagreement" with issymum is except on the achievability of the "6.1" scenario.

serenequeen · 13/05/2004 20:34

pph, haven't started it yet, will do tomorrow!

princesspeahead · 13/05/2004 21:03

I noticed!
Or we can just talk about it on Sat

lucysmum · 13/05/2004 21:30

Haven't been on Mumsnet for a while - too busy at work... This is a great thread. I am a part time (4 day week) partner at a big 4 accounting firm (I wonder if I know Mrs Wobble ?). I got pregnant with DD1 the month I made partner and that was not a coincidence. Before that would have been career suicide I thought. It is much easier to do as a partner. I don't work in London and only have a short commute which helps but do a fair few transactions (IPOs, due diligence etc) as well as more mundane stuff. I would agree with someone's comment that lawyers work even harder than accountants. I have a great nanny (would never have coped with nursery hours). I work most evenings and sometimes on my day off and am normally contacatable even if not in the office. The key is flexibility. I think my firm accepts it now and I have never had a client have a problem with it. On the whole I love my job except when I have to travel overseas and don't see my DDs for a few days.

jojobingo · 14/05/2004 10:11

Have not posted for a couple of days due to too much work but this thread is fabulous - we absolutely must meet up - I'm based in Canary Wharf but expect most of you are in the City? Can I start the ball rolling with after work onTuesday 1 June, at a convenient venue in the City ?

handbagaddiction · 14/05/2004 10:26

I also used to work for a big accounting firm but in the Management Consultancy part. Gave it up 4 years ago to join a small niche outfit in Financial Services but essentially still do the same kind of work - all client based. Have just come back from maternity leave with dd who is safely tucked away in nursery full-time. Due to my commute, I can't drop dd off at nursery and pick her up in the same day so dh and I end up doing one bit each and then swapping the next week so at least we get to spend either the mornings or evenings with her. It is difficult though - especially if there are problems with the trains.

Fortunately for me, my own company have been incredibly understanding - espcecially because the nursery train times means that I either get in a 09:30 or have to leave at 4:00 depending on which week it is! Even this has to have flexibility though because invariably either dh or me has a late night or early morning meeting that cannot be changed and we end up going through a series of swaps....! I think I'm also lucky because my new client is equally understanding (I appreciate that not all of them would be - especially in FS).

I do love working and I do enjoy my job. I also love spending time with dd, just don't think I could do the SAHM bit - think I need the extra buzz of being in the city, shoving people out of the way Starbucks skinny wet latte in hand!! I now think the time I do spend with dd is much better and I'm fully concentrated on her when I'm with her. That does of course mean all housework has gone out of the window and we iron on a needs basis only - but maybe the fact that we're living in the building site..has more to do with that.....oh how much do I want my house to be finished.......???

binkie · 14/05/2004 13:33

Interesting point from both lucysmum and hba re clients being understanding - that is very much my experience too, and yet it is still the one Big Argument that gets used against flexible working. Anyone have a different experience?

binkie · 17/05/2004 12:43

bump for the lunchtime checkers-in

jojo, well done for initiative - I'll be out of town Tuesday 1st but maybe others will be around?

dinosaur · 17/05/2004 12:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

LucieB · 17/05/2004 13:04

I am currently on mat leave but a regular get-together should be established. I will definitely need it when I return to work in the autumn! Its a lonely old life being a working mum sometimes....

dinosaur · 17/05/2004 13:05

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

beachyhead · 17/05/2004 16:03

I'm in the City and as I work in structured finance, I read all the documents you so lovingly write.... Thanks!!!!!

I work 3 days a week, City based and have done for five years. I don't think you have to choose to SAHM or work full time, hopefully. I've just slowed down to three days and yes, you don't get the promotion, the extra money, the great bonus etc, but I think it is worth it to keep my hand in!!! (actually no choice as badly paid dh).

One day, I might go back to 5 days a week (not here though as not going to get over the stigma of part time). Also don't just want salary to be increased incrementally - would like lots more!!!!

Clients don't seem to worry, I don't tell them and they think I'm travelling or very busy from Thursday to Monday!!!!

Would like to meet up with lawyers - I'm sure I know Dinosaur (in fact, when MN meet up, don't you suddenly meet a whole load of your old friends now defrocked!!) Has this happened to anyone????

dinosaur · 17/05/2004 16:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

piglit · 17/05/2004 17:42

I've just seen this thread and haven't read it all but wanted to say that I understand 100% what you say. Until last summer I was a senior associate in a v large City firm when I got married and moved to the West Country. I am now 20 weeks pg and have already taken the decision to be a SAHM. My job here is nothing like my old job with all the horrendous hours. I admire totally anyone who can do the full time City firm thing with children (let's face it p/t at a City firm just doesn't exist in practice). I don't think I could have done my old job when I was in the first "flush" of pg so god knows how anyone does the job with children! Dh and I have decided that I'll be a SAHM and I know that some people think I'm mad to "give up" everything I achieved but TBH I think that what I am about to do will be far more of an achievement (for me anyway) than any of the work I've done.

I will really miss the money though.....

Tartegnin · 19/05/2004 16:06

Has anyone else seen the incredible possibility here? A dozen or more qualified, motivated, experienced lawyers with the only requirement that they have a bit of flexibility to arrange their work schedules ? sounds like the beginning of a new firm. Frankly, the biggest obstacle in current private practice to ?having it all? is the partnership track expectations and financial billable hour structures in established firms which make it nearly impossible to do anything but work a 50-60-70+ hours week. Anything which falls outside of that is hard to accommodate.

Outside of starting a mom-friendly firm (and heck, let?s be honest, I bet there are more than a few lawyer dads out there who might be interested), though, I have more unsolicited advice to add to the incredibly interesting debate on this thread.

From the outset, I would say that, while I applaud your instincts to ?give it a go?, I am very pessimistic about your chances to succeed in balancing a full time, partnership track litigation practice with a level of childcare which you would be happy with and with the demands on your husband?s time in the next year (and beyond). I think you are doomed to failure, and not only will that failure take the better part of a year, or longer, but you will then have to cope with that sense of failure (no matter how justified) for a lot longer than that. Let?s face it, most of us are high achievers, and failure is not an acceptable facet of our characters.

What I would do in your shoes (and I?ve been there in one way or another) is this: think long and hard about what would be perfect for you. Since the law is a profession and not a ?job?, I doubt that ?perfect? would include chucking it in altogether. If ?perfect? includes staying more or less in your current firm and field, then put together a really well-conceived plan of how you might manage a version of your job which satisfies your professional needs while accommodating your personal situation. This will certainly, in a perfect world, involve some sort of part-time or flexi-time arrangement. Then, approach the firm (not just your boss, who doesn?t sound very accommodating) with a proposal. Approach them not only with your specific proposal, but also with the argument that law firms are generally behind the trend to provide better emphasis on accommodating and benefiting from diversity in the workplace. At some point, it?s going to catch up with firms the same way it?s caught up to companies, and some companies are making real efforts not only to attract but also to keep top talent. Argue that you are a big value added and that you have a plan that can work for everyone. Acknowledge that the firm runs on its billables and its client services, and explain how you can accommodate that. It?s a big amount of preparation and argument, but as a litigator, you?re already ahead of most of us in the skills required to organize and present a compelling argument.

At the end of the day, though I also advise you to be prepared to walk if they cannot or will not accommodate you. There are many opportunities to be a working mom, and some of the other posters have given great advice on options and opportunities. Not to mention, the new firm I only half-jokingly started out with?

All the very best, no matter what your decision. I?ve made my own set of decisions, together with my husband, in the past few years since our daughter was born, and I?m pretty well convinced there?s no real perfect solution out there, but a series of compromises gets you pretty close to where you might want to be.

MrsWobble · 20/05/2004 09:45

This may not be helpful - I understand that lawyers' hours are different to accountants and that partnership and children might, therefore, be impossible. However, there are also non-lawyers following this thread so I would like to make the following observations.

Life is full of compromises - there is no such thing as having it all. What you should achieve though is that the compromises you make are yours, not someone else's decision. What's right for one person is not necessarily right for another and the most important way to be happy is to work out what's right for you.

At my firm we are currently going through a round of mid year counselling and I am getting really fed up of discussions with girls which start along the lines "I would like to be a partner one day but I know it's not possible because I also want a family". It IS possible - although if you start with a negative frame of mind then of course it won't be. This then influences work allocations so that all the best work goes to the boys because the girls are not seen as committed to their careers and so the best experience is gained by the boys who achieve best promotions etc and this all contributes to the belief that girls can't really manage both career and family and don't want to anyway.

I'm not saying that a demanding career is for everyone - I know lots of people who were perfectly capable of, and had, good careers but have chosen to stay at home with their children. It's just that I think everyone should be able to work out what's best for them and their families and not have to deal with inherent prejudices.

Basically I'm saying I think you should work out what you want and how it might be achieved without feeling constrained by what arrangements your workplace might already have - just because something's not been done before there's no reason why it can't.