High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

Loving this thread!

biscuits just read your other thread, gosh your situation is very much like mine.

2 big differences: 1) I've managed to get 4 days agreed (first in my dept - silver circle). Don't assume you can't - there has been a lot of press and chat in city law recently about trying to retain more women, and there is (at least in my firm) an unprecedented keenness to be seen to be flexible. in fact they actually told me they wanted me as a "guinea pig" to test out part time. So you may find attitudes have changed in the past couple of years, especially if they've seen good women leave.

Also - what do you think of my "use annual leave to go part time" suggestion? I have a friend (a banker) who does this - she uses all her annual leave to work a 9 day fortnight, then she uses parental leave to have holidays. Could you do this, at least for a bit? It would be a good way of testing whether your job can work if you are not there on Fridays. 4 days a week is working so far for me (but I'm litigation not transactional and I am working with a big team at the mo, so easier to delegate on Fridays).

2. You sound like you enjoy being a SAHM much more than I did, and enjoy your job much less than I do. So the balance is quite different. I pretty much skipped back to work at the end of mat leave whereas you said it was heartbreaking. Hmm.

To be honest in your shoes, if I felt as you appear to, I'd probably get pg with number 3 ASAP, take the third lot of mat pay, go back for a final 6 months and then see how I felt... by that time you may be so fed up of juggling 3 kids and a city career that your decision is easier.

Hi Clarissa

How are you getting on now?

Mitchell

In all honesty, maternity leave isn't a great move career wise. It can be got over, of course, but employers hardly jump for joy at the prospect of either and I think women stay longer at one firm because of qualifying periods etc. So your DH's argument isn't that great.

I have had a number of men (working alongside me when I was doing 4 days per week) saying that they wish they could do what my DH did ie four days a week, albeit in a different industry. You can, sunshine - look at me, right here, doing it. My vagina didn't give me special powers and the law gives you and your penis the same rights.

Yes I have been thinking of using leave like that, I think another returning mother tried it for a few months but they weren't keen to let it continue any longer than that. I am going to see.. You can imagine in a transactional group being off consistently a day a week or fortnight is tricky.

Certainly was no skipping back for me... Though don't get me wrong being a SAHM 24/7 is exhausting and boring at times. And there is the whole 'what do I so when they're all at school' question. I am sure I could fill my time with charity work / hobbies, and I'd love to set up my own business some time, but giving up my career (despite the fact I don't enjoy it) still daunting. I guess I also feel torn as I feel I have a lot to offer but my current job inherently family unfriendly.

I do think if you can find work you enjoy that is the key to all this. I find mine fascinating and intellectual challenging even now. I started it when I was 21 ( graduated at 20) and 30 years on I love it just as much, in fact more now that I have much more money, power, reputation, choice, control and work for myself. I would love to do 30 years more.

if you don't like it analyse why. Is it that the people you work with are awful (often that is the case and just moving firms helps) or is it that the area you are in is boring and never changes or that you find it very difficult and you might prefer another area or you'd prefer a much bigger international role or being a self employed consultant or founding your own practice? I do think if women are going to work for 50 or 60 years it's great if you can find work you actually enjoy.

For some careers (and only some) moving to the public sector can provide a little more flexibility whilst still providing a competitive salary.
The work can still be challenging/high profile (you can find yourself working on similar transactions as you did in the private sector, just on the other side) but in a more flexible environment. The positions are few and far between and seldom come up though.

These roles also demonstrate that some jobs can be performed equally well in a 4 day weeks or hours that accommodate childcare (albeit with logging back in in the evening on occasion). A lot of the long/inflexible hours culture is simply that, culture, rather than necessity. Employers feel more secure having employees who have no competing outside interests that might tear them away from their desks.

I wouldn't like to comment on how easy it is to revert back to the private sector, though I do know those who have successfully managed it.

One decision we have made is to live as centrally as possible so we can leave as late as possible in the mornings and be home before 6 (DH, not me). DH's commute is 20mins by bike. Mine used to be 20 min walk or 10 min bus. We couldn't manage the 1hr + commutes, especially when those two hours a day are DS waking hours. I know, we're very fortunate to be able to live well in Central London. As others have said, keeping on top of emails and meeting requests after DS is in bed is a good technique as well, so long as you carve out a bit of marriage time as well!

Jaffa - we've done the same and it's a life saver. 30 minutes on foot or bus to work, quicker on train. It means I can go back into the office after the DC are in bed to work "the evening shift" when necessary and when DH is home.

To those considering flexible working and 4 day weeks, my approach is also this - you have to shape the way your chosen profession's culture works. Yes, there is a lot of stick-in-the-mudness about the way things have always been, especially in the City, but for god's sake, if you want to be a lawyer/banker/management consultant etc AND have children AND perhaps see those children every day, then why the hell not? That is not an unreasonable ask.

Generation Y (of which I am too old to be part!) is never going to stand for these life-consuming jobs that we have done.

Never assume that it can't be done. Push the boundaries and be the guinea pig to trial flexible working / fixed hour etc.

I'm doing that at the moment and while I wouldn't say I'm flying up the ladder, I am holding my own and biding my time until I get more than five hours sleep a night.

Handmini: whilst Generation Y might value different things to earlier generations, are they really going to be in a position to change things?

Won't high unemployment among graduates mean for many careers are likely to start later and salaries rise more slowly, impacting when/if they take time off to have children or subsequently can afford to work part-time or can leverage working flexibly?

Together with increased student debt and high property prices, Generation Y might not be having children at all. And they probably won't be living in central London.

Squeak squeak

Yes I agree HandMini. Don't ask, don't get, so it's always got to be worth a try even if you think it might not work or even if it's never been done before. Because it just might work. It's tough when the employer says no to even trying though, as is the case for biscuits.

biscuits you say they weren't keen to allow the "annual leave as part time/parental leave as holiday" setup continue. But, how could they actually stop it? Legally, they can't. Just saying...

Million- The only Generation Ys I see are those at my firm who are ten years younger than me, starting out or a few years in, and they are just not prepared to put in the same life-commitment as I was ten years ago.

They actively maintain their out-of-work life and they question why the job requires such commitment (both of hours and emotional energy). They're right to question as well. Good for them I say.

Yes, as an overall demographic, Generation Y are less likely to be in the high earning jobs, but those that are will be rallying for change in the same way we are.

Mini - I agree it's a real shame when a firm won't even try. That's the hardest thing to come up against. And that's when it's time to move on I reckon.

I'd like to think you're right HandMini but unfortunately, I think that if Generation Y won't do the hours, employers and/or clients will simply find people from other countries who will.

Handmini - I was thinking more of the hundreds of CVs I come across of graduates treading water in low level admin jobs, trying to get their first step on the ladder.

I tend to agree with minipie, in a market where employers can cherry pick I can't see family/employee friendly policies taking priority.

It's true that non-UK Gen Y-ers may have a different outlook, but I disagree that family / employee friendly policies wont' take priorty.

I am optimistic that I have already seen huge moves in my profession towards keeping working mothers in the job - business advisers can't ignore the Davis Report and the FRC requirements for their own employees while telling their clients they have to follow them.

Hello everyone. V interesting thread. I'm slightly different in that I have a 7 month old & have my own business, but have decided I do not want to go back more than a couple of days, which is a very, very tricky situation as my other co-founder doesn't want me to go back part time.. It's incredibly stressful. :(

90% of not wanting to go back is I just want to look after our ds and spend this time with him, but the other 10% is I just cannot imagine managing being the only parent Mon-Fri plus at least 1 day solo at weekends, running a business, working full time and doing everything in terms of running our household. My DH is not really supportive at all - no help with anything related to house, child care etc - he commutes 4 hrs a day so is out 6.30am - 7.30pm. Partly he's not interested, partly he's too knackered. I have cleaners and we pay for all DIY etc to be done.

It has caused massive arguments with (d)h over last few months because he wants me to go back at least part time.

Any advice would be v welcome - v rare to get women in this situation - partner in own business who's not keen to go back - and am finding a complete void of advice on the topic.

In the meantime, OP, the one thing I would say having read through this thread, is that I think no-one can ever predict how having the baby will affect you. I was totally unprepared for the massive emotional bond I have with ds. It has really taken me by surprise, and has been lovely, but has also meant just the mere thought of leaving him had me in tears at times. The idea of going back to work after a few months, let alone a month would just have been impossible for me, and I did not expect that. I would strongly echo one poster who said make no promises about going back - you may feel drastically different after the birth. Congratulations, and enjoy your pregnancy! :)

nappyrat this is not a particularly helpful answer but my first thought is that your DH needs to pull his weight more with the DC/house. 6.30 to 7.30 out of the house is really not that long a day. I'm assuming he gets a decent night's sleep and isn't ill or disabled? My DH regularly leaves 7.30 and is back 8.30 or later and he still does 50% at weekends and quite a bit during the week (eg he looks after DD for up to an hour every morning so I can lie in a bit). I can see that your DH's hours don't really fit with childcare in the week, but I'm not sure why he can't help at weekends? He is just as much your DS's parent as you are and he ought to be doing 50% when he is not at work. I appreciate that's easier said than done mind you!

On that subject - a piece of advice I was given is that DC's schedules can be changed (over time). For example my colleague's children sleep 8.30pm -8am rather than the more usual 7-7. Because she is a lawyer and her days tend to run later, that means she can still see them both morning and evening. Although she says it may get tricky once they start school...

Different people, different options and different choices. My children are older and I love my work. Why would I seek to minimise it and the hours spent on it? It may not quite be as good as sex but it's up there with all my hobbies and certainly more desirable than cleaning the house or washing children's clothes and always has been. However I have loved it much more since I started working for myself. Every hour is more money and I keep all the money - that is the real attraction if you can own rather than just work for someone.

There are loads of great graduates out there and just like has always been the case if you lean in and work hard you do well, whatever your gender and whether you've babies, elderly parents, an all consuming hobby or whatever at home. Most people don't want to do that which makes it all the easier for those of us (male or female) who want to do so. Most people in fact are off "sick" a lot, often late for work, many find it hard to hold down jobs, and plenty of tradesmen don't even turn up on time for their appointments so it's pretty easy to be better than most of those people.

Minipie, an employer can refuse a holiday pattern that doesn't work for them.

Nappyrat, if your DH wants you to share the earning responsibility, he has GOT to share the childcare responsibility. What the fuck makes him think he's exempt from one but you're not exempt from the other? And has he even enquired about flexible working - a late start or early finish one or two days a week at the very least.

Minipie, an employer can refuse a holiday pattern that doesn't work for them.

Nappyrat, if your DH wants you to share the earning responsibility, he has GOT to share the childcare and household responsibility. What the fuck makes him think he's exempt from one but you're not exempt from the other? And has he even enquired about flexible working - a late start or early finish one or two days a week at the very least.

Minipie, an employer can refuse a holiday pattern that doesn't work for them.

Nappyrat, if your DH wants you to share the earning responsibility, he has GOT to share the childcare and household responsibility. What the fuck makes him think he's exempt from one but you're not exempt from the other? And has he even enquired about flexible working - a late start or early finish one or two days a week at the very least.

Sorry

Thankyou, Business & minipie. I think part of it (and I am trying to be gracious here cos most of the time I just want to call him a lazy, selfish b*stard!) is that he is struggling to adapt to life with a child & accept things have changed since ds came along. His disposable cash has not been affected because I never need any money from him (sep finances & I have enough to cover anything I/ds needs), and he thinks because his job/ commute is so 'tough' (most people say 'poor love' when they hear about the 4 hr commute which doesn't help!), the weekends & evenings should be his 'downtime'. Grrrr, I am seething just writing this, I have an awful lot of anger about this issue because my background is highly educated, driven, career etc, so this attitude is so alien to me. :(
The fact that I have ebf since birth hasn't helped (mistake on my part looking back, wish I had got him on a bottle as well) as (d)h always thinks my breasts are the only solution to any whimper or issue with ds.
But at your post minipie! You're bloody right you know, a lot of people do longer days than him, I never think about that, he's so 'woe is me' all the time!
Very tough times for me at the mo., the lack of equality / support generally has knocked me for six. And although I haven't found the transition from career-driven to mum at all difficult, I have found the fact that he has not changed at all a huge issue.
Know I'm wandering off topic slightly...! But I guess all related to career women becoming mums and the challenges that presents.

I have found some of these posts extremely insightful, especially as I'll be returning to work in two weeks. I have found myself at a company that doesn't really attract women let alone those with children, so (whilst trying not to hijack the thread) I wondered if anyone had advice about trying to find female mentors in the finance field.

mumtodaria - I know a CEO of a finance company who has encouraged / been active in the establishment of a women's group within her (global) firm. She is childless, and works mad hours, so sometimes even I'm a bit as to what her professional approach might be to working mums, but the impression I get is that she's just straight-up supportive of ambitious women full stop, regardless of their situation. This type of group might be a good starting place within your company, and then see where it goes from there?? You might be surprised who comes out of the woodwork within your company once something like this is going.