High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

I feel for you softcookie you sound really ground down. And I think the worst thing is that just when you most need to be able to think creatively about your options - i.e. when you feel most trapped and overburdened - is when you are least able to do it. Very different, but I see this a lot with e.g. PhD students who are close to completion or post-docs who are v. stressed about trying to find a job. They actually have loads of impressive qualities/transferable skills/career options but they reach a point of desperation where they are so tired and stressed and ground down that they can't see any of that. It is hard to find the energy to make changes and step back to reflect when you are exhausted. Certainly I have noticed myself that it is much easier to initiate change when you are actually feeling basically happy and fulfilled.

Is there anyone at all you can talk this through with? A mentor or any women a few years ahead of you in a similar role? Could it even be worth arranging to see some sort of careers adviser or life coach to help you think through options? Even booking a couple of days off specifically to rest and think/talk things through?

I suppose I would be asking myself: is this situation long-term or is a short-term intense period that is worth hacking through? have I felt like this before and then been glad I didn't leave? is there anything else I could be doing/not doing to ease the pressure? and then all those thought experiments re: where you want to be in x years, and imagining that you have resigned and how you feel about it.

I think I am lucky because although academia is tough in lots of ways - e.g. not very well paid given the level of qualification and expertise, the intensity of the pressure and the round-the-clock commitment - it IS flexible. I can and do work from home, or stop for a couple of hours to put DS to bed then go back to it. And we have a huge amount of autonomy and independence in our work which is lovely if it suits your temperament and you don't find the lack of structure/accountability demotivating.

Dh is amazing and he's in fact carrying the bulk of the burden. I think the issue is that I wanted it all - I was frustrated by the slow progress and crappy work I was given in my old firm, so I tried to lean in (god I hate this sentence). And now I realize that you can't have it all. The job is also an issue tbh - no one to delegate to, v demanding boss, high stress.

On the long hours I have done that. I work for myself so I tend to work 7 days a week about 50 yeeks a year, but fitting anything in whenever I like. It works very well. I always come downstairs at 6.30am and check emails. At the moment (for the first time in 29 years as a parent) I drive the children to school most days (3 days this week) and yes I could go up to their school at 4.30 but at 5.30 I was back at work and I'm still doing things now. I finished at 9.30 last night. I much prefer to work very early than late on.

My daughter worked 43 hours without a break last year once. I know how it can be. I don't think you getg the best out of any staff if all the time they work late and don't have enough sleep. I feel very lucky I am able to say to clients okay I'm tired I'll do it tomorrow. It is very rare for me now that something has to be done through the night. it is when it is late night after night and you don't own the place and you have little choice about staying that things are very hard. I left at about 5.30 for a few years when the children were young. Who knows how much better I would have done had I not but that was what I did. I cannot remember now if it we every night but it was most of the time in those early few year.

I am extremely glad I have ended up working for myself as there is so much power and control. What I don't want for my daughters is they pick lower pay for shorter hours in due course. I think if you can get ownership with much higher pay than you get where you are that's a much better aim, compete against and win against the men and the male firms and out earn them is a lot of fun.

Yes on the programme today I was surprised too but I think the answers were perhaps driven by the fact they wanted to talk about the new enhanced paternity leave rights. My own view is if you aren't there and don't work for a good few years you aren't likely to do very well. Thus it is as damaging for men as women to take long leaves when babies come in the jobs which earn the most money (which are perhaps the jobs most worth having).

Ouch Softcookie it sounds like that would be a tough gig for anyone, even without DC. Is there anyone else you can talk to in the firm about how to improve things? If you have really got to the point where you are considering resigning then, in theory at least, you have nothing to lose by a cards on the table discussion where you say "this is not sustainable" and ask to discuss ideas to improve things (eg someone junior on the team for you to delegate to; your boss to be told to back off a bit). Easier said than done I know... especially if you are quite new and don't yet have that sort of relationship with the senior people.

Mmm, I accepted (perhaps too easily) that I couldn't have it all job wise. I think I am a bit lazy compared with a lot of you and that combined with DH's earnings meant I wasn't too bothered about "leaning out" a bit and making slow career progress. I was lucky though in that a part time alternative did not mean crappy work for me. It would be much harder to accept crappy work.

LauraBridges, your situation really isn't comparable with softcookie's: there are plenty of studies that show that people with control and autonomy are much less likely to be ground down and made ill by stress than people who have neither. I also dispute that jobs with the most money are necessarily the ones most worth having - there are several academics on this thread who I imagine would agree with me.

There's a real issue here, which is perhaps not for this thread, about the insane (and in the long term surely unproductive even from the business's point of view) hours "professional" jobs demand at precisely the stage of life where women, at least, are most likely to have a family. Unless you're genuinely happy with an arrangement where the baby never sees either of its parents during the week, something has to give.

kalidasa is spot on: it's most difficult to make changes and see what to do next when you're really ground down and exhausted. I had a very bad week a couple of weeks ago and simply couldn't see a way out, but I've since had a week's holiday and I begin to see a way through the difficulties.

Softcookie, that sounds really tough. I honestly don't think 60-70 hour weeks without a hell of a lot of help on the domestic and children front is sustainable. I have taken advantage of every single bit of assistance at work to manage my stress, counselling, psychotherapy, the lot. Mrs Wobble's two questions:

1. Does this work really need to be done tonight?
2. Does this work need to be done by me?

are probably a good test before starting the work.

I don't do such manic hours, but I regularly do 45-50h per week, then on busy weeks it ramps up. Whenever I read this thread, I have a niggling worry that I am doing the wrong thing by career-changing into teaching - I have built up 13 years of experience with my current employer, and have a bright future ahead, if I can stick it out till my next role (about 18mo time). Salary is very decent. Company is well regarded, generally thought of as a "company for life", although less so nowadays. I have been very happy except for the last 18 months or so, where my confidence has taken a huge knock and I feel constantly on the defensive - dreading work.

This week I am bereft of childcare, so I am working 3 days from home and husband is taking two day's leave. I've dropped the children off at school and picked them up, and taken my son to his swimming lesson. I know I won't be able to do this as a teacher. The week has been relatively quiet, although not without its challenges, so calmer than usual. I have been getting better at ignoring the "noise" which clutters up my time, and learning to take it on the chin (and justify) when someone inevitably complains.

I'm pretty much following my gut with the career change. When I have a wobble (and it has been such a pleasant week that I'm on a wobble at the moment), it usually takes a couple of days in the office or a day in a school to reassure me that I'm doing the right thing.

Sorry for the procrastination. I really like reading this thread, it is making me question my choices and decisions - which is a good thing.

If you want to lean right out and live off male (or female) earnings you can do rather well if you hook yourself to the right man (or woman). A bit of insight into what some City high earners earn is all revealed in here. These cases usually give a lot of information about personal finances which you never otherwise find out.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2014/392.html

Some of you might find this really interesting to watch. I know I did. m.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

I stepped through the door at home about 9pm tonight. Ordinarily I'll be getting in about 6 having picked dd up from nursery. As dh works from home, he can get dinner on although it tends to be something I've made during the weekend... Then the chaos ensues of bath, story, bed.

Today and yesterday I worked late. I had a deadline that I was trying to meet for Thursday. I'm not sure I can get that done now, but if I can get some done I'll feel better for it. My co-author is very aware of what I'm doing because interestingly enough we use Dropbox and so whenever I save a new doc, she gets an alert.

Re the procrastinator, well author no 3 has emailed her and she's said she's been bogged down with stuff (no shit Sherlock) but that she's set aside Monday as her day to do this. So we shall see.

I guess Monday evening we will know whether we get an alert that says our paper's been submitted.

I'm actually less moody than normal. Primarily because I don't have the stress of the bedtime chaos. Maybe I'm just not very maternal!?! Or maybe it's just that I'm fretting about work, because 8h days don't work for me... Or at least an ordinary 8h day that's consumed with endless meetings don't work for me...and so I get stressed about emails that might come in because things are being dealt with by other people at the end of the day because they've also been in endless shit meetings the whole day (does that sentence even make any sense?).

I guess my point was, that I'm happier these 2 days even though I've been at work late because at least when I get in I'm not checking my emails obsessively waiting for replies from people who only get round to emails after 5/6pm. But i don't think it's sustainable... As on an ordinary day, I'm in bed by now, reading or doing something else and then it's off lights sleep by about 10/1030! I wake at 6, to get some peace and do emails. I can't function otherwise....

NK, I think that's pretty normal. I have an aim to avoid every meeting ever. I don't always achieve it. I turn down vast amounts of very kind invitations from contacts to meet for lunch or dinner every single week of the year. I don't think I can see it's because I am shy or unsociable really. I just like to get things done and most internal meetings don't. One of the nicest things about working for myself is no need to clearing anything with anyone or discussing it - I just do it.

I have advised my children to pick work which is intellectually satisfying and they will enjoy for their lifetimes and ideally is well paid too but also work where ultimately you could work for yourself. So when daughter 1 was looking at advertising agencies one reason I was supportive of that was that some people go on and found their own, ditto obviously what she ended up in - law and the medical members of our family do some (and could do more) private work.

My other advice is spread risk. Try to have several sources of income. We probably had 4 jobs between us and also two flats we let out when the older children were about 3/5/7. It did mean we had extra admin and we both did a lot of painting at weekends at times although even that was a nice break from in turns for each of us from the children for a few hours.

To be honest almost the only meetings I can bear at all are the ones that I am chairing! That sounds awful but goodness I HATE the absolute time-sink of inefficient, ill managed, endless meetings, and I hate them even more now that time is so precious. I do have one colleague though who is a good brisk chair so I appreciate that. I do think they can be useful but what they are useful for is not often actual decision making, but for making sure (if you handle them well) that people feel heard. For instance, I have initiated quite regular meetings for our large team of language teachers - these are not permanent members of staff, they are mostly quite junior and getting by with a patchwork of hourly-paid teaching at various departments, but several of them are extremely experienced and what they do is crucial to our department. In the past they were repeatedly not consulted even about e.g. changes to the language teaching programme! I thought this was so disrespectful and also stupid, since they are such a large pool of expertise. So I have made a point (since it became my job to manage them) of meeting them as a group regularly to seek feedback on any proposed changes; of emailing them very regularly to seek advice and opinions; and also of meeting them individually for a coffee about once a term to catch up and see how things are going. Also every time anything comes up in this area I am like a stuck record at meetings/in email threads saying "we need to makes sure that on this point we consult the people actually doing this teaching". As a result they have been extremely helpful on many issues and there is a huge difference in atmosphere.

Good luck with the article NK.

Any more nanny/nanny interviewing tips anyone? I have gleaned several from earlier in the thread. We are just starting this process and haven't had a nanny before.

I'm standing here with my pom poms cheering you all on.

I quit my seriously stressful HCP career to take a break which means that I also quit my salary even though freelance writing, copy writing and editing is paying pretty well at the moment. I wasn't earning in the £100,00's but my job made me responsible for the safety of a lot of vulnerable people- legally and professionally accountable whether I was sitting on a beach during A/L or at my desk. In nursing accountability means you are never off duty and a lot of people struggle to grasp that. They don't understand that clients are still under my care and my responsibility when I am on holiday/giving birth and that if something goes wrong, the onus is on me to demonstrate that I made good provision. That weighed very heavily on me towards the end because we all knew our trust did not have our backs and that we had been afforded responsibility without authority- even at higher CMHT management bands.

I started my working life back in the early 80's and it really does feel like another time when I look back at the way I was treated by so many people including those who regarded themselves as progressive.

I never used to mention my children at work despite the fact that it was fairly female heavy. However I noticed that most of the senior positions were occupied by men and I am sure that this in some way compensated or overcame any dissonance they felt as males in a profession traditionally seen as female. However being part of the vanguard to 'professionalise' nursing makes me feel proud- evidence based practice was in its infancy when I qualified and you can now have an intellectually satisfying career whilst meeting the need to care for which may have drove you to choose the career in the first place (and which ironically allowed it to be sidelined as 'women's work for so long).

Not mentioning my children when they were small allowed me to feel that I had my own domain- an area of my life which was mine and afforded on merits other than the achievements of all the other people in my life. I didn't have desk photos or their artwork everywhere. I did get some colleagues commenting on this when they discovered I had children. I think they saw it as some kind of aberration.

Keep on trucking all of you. Women can learn from other women who have risen up and smashed the stereotypes as opposed to denigrating them for being high earners. Equality will only be achieved through this.

This morning, talking to my yoga teacher, he laughed at the notion of my working "part time". Do you do the 5 contracted hours a day, he asked? Hmm no, it's more around 6 and lately it has been 8 hours on a couple of days. So you are practically working full time, he mentioned...

I guess what he is missing is that full time in my industry (IT for investment banking) is a minimum of 10 hours a day, more like 12 on a normal day and beyond that in busy times.

I can join the choruses of "don't go part time, you will get mummy-tracked" since that has happened to me and I'm not even a mom yet! (not looking promising at the moment). I'm thinking of getting out and then starting to pick up work on the things I love doing. It will take me out of the 100k+ bracket but as I am getting older I'm finding it more and more important to love what I do, and I don't at the moment.

Kalidasa, I hate meetings too which is ironic because I run quite a few (I have a global team so I need to ensure we are all on the same page). But I'm a very brisk chair so we never drone on and on. We discuss, we agree, and we move on with the real work!

re nannies/nanny interviews: I didn't actually interview many people so poss not best placed to advise, but one thing I would say is that if you find someone even slightly irritating at interview then that will magnify once you see them every day. Choose someone you can get along with. Ask about the sort of day they would generally have, what they love doing with their charges - some nannies are more home based and some love getting out, so choose someone who fits what your DC prefer. Do they have experience of children this age. References are really really really important (and people will say on phone what they may not put on paper) but most nannies won't give referee contact details until you have offered the job... so it's a slight catch 22 but always offer a job subject to references. Ask referees about reliability, sickness, lateness. Nannies often talk in net pay but make sure you agree a gross salary not net (otherwise the amount it costs you will vary depending on their tax code/changes in situation). Hours wise, allow an extra 15-20 minutes at at least one end of the day to do a handover, ideally both ends. A slight pay increase per year and often a bonus is normal if they are doing a good job so give yourself a bit of headroom if you can when agreeing salary, also don't forget heating food activity costs.

Thanks minipie that's v. useful. I have only got as far as a phone conversation with one candidate so far (others are just at CV stage), and I did warm immediately to her on the phone. She is actually very experienced as well but I think the main thing is someone I can work with. We also need someone quite flexible as we are facing a tough first year - if I get pregnant again soon (as we hope) I can expect to be seriously ill throughout, in and out of hospital for the first few months and in a wheelchair by the end. That's partly why we're making the switch now - to make life practically easier for DH and emotionally more secure for DS during this stretch. But it does mean we need someone who'd be able to deal with this situation potentially pretty early on. On the other hand, it would be sole charge of a single toddler to start with, with quite flexible hours, which I hope will be appealing.

What I would like women to do who are fed up is leave and set up a business which doubles their previous high pay. It doesn't have to be a choice of give up the first job and be plunged into relative penury for life. Leave, found your own place and out earn the men for whom you used to work.

I didn't leave where I worked before until i was making the same as my then salary in evenings and weekends (I was not competing and there as no restriction on my doing so). When I realised I could make as much so much more easily than being an employee I ditched the day job but I ditched it knowing I was already earning my then salary and then earned a lot more. That is not possible for everyone but it certainly takes some of the risk out of it . One of my daughter rents out her flat. The other and her husband are about to move and keep one flat as a buy to let. That kind of attempt to spread risk and not put all your eggs into being someone's employee basket is probably a good idea where it is possible.

Like the pom-poms!

Will read properly later.

just a quick one about mentioning children. I don't really mention kids unless it's a casual conversation say at lunch time and even then I don't really bring them up unless there's something obvious or there's a direct question 'how are your kids?'. I do bring up my kids during some of my lectures and my students have seen my kids because they come to my workplace at least at the start of the year because we have a family activity.

however if people come to my office, they'll see a couple of photos and the back of my door plastered with 'drawings' (scribbles) done by my kids. I'm happy for that to stay. It makes me human! If I was in my office abit more, I'd probably have a couple of plants!

ah yes I remember your other thread in childcare section kalisada. Sounds like she is mature enough not to be thrown by an ill employer/changes in your situation.

Such a great thread. Another one that doesn't meet the criteria but lots of what you say resonates.

I am reading Lean In on the back of this thread - great read.

Also I was looking at networking events and I came across this in London. www.citymothers.co.uk/#/loginjoin-us/4570644610 I don't think it has been mentioned. I have no idea what it is like and maybe it is too general/not senior enough for some on here but thought I'd share it.

I am nothing to do with the org, I am a marketing freelancer and a regular on the freelance board.

Thanks Margo will look at that (though conscious I'm in three other networks and only go to one!)

That organisation - City mothers sounds a bit like the one I was in 20 years ago - we had lunch time meetings - a talk and then chatting. It was good.

I see they have some good talks coming up too and the next from MGD, a law firm partner who I believe will out earn her husband so a good example:
Citymothers Speaker Series

March 2014; Citi, Canary Wharf
Guest Speaker: Miriam Gonzalez Durantez

Citymothers Seminar
March 2014; Pictet, City of London
Content (run by Educating Matters): 'Writing Matters' (Targeting parents of 5-11 year olds)
Addressing how writing is taught in schools and how parents can effectively support their children's writing skills.

Citymothers Seminar
April 2014; RBS, City of London
Content (run by Talking Talent): Exploring what it takes to move from initial re-integration to sustainable progression as a working mother.

Hi, I would love to join this positive and inspiring thread. I work in a senior corporate role in a "City" firm and earn well into 6 figures - nearly twice what my DH takes home. I am currently on maternity leave with DD2 (born in December) and considering options for the future.

I am lucky to be working in a supportive (but demanding) environment and have, relatively speaking, a good work life balance at least in theory. I try to be home by children's bedtime although I often have to carry on working in the evenings and pick things up at weekends too. I am senior enough to have some flexibility and nobody really questions me as long as I get the job done.

However, I have to admit I have really struggled for the last 3 years since going back to work with DD1. Although I like my job a lot and I like the benefits it brings financially, I missed my daughter every day and resented the fact that someone else was looking after her. Initially we had a nanny - things actually got a bit better after we switched to nursery which although it was more complicated logistically at least made me feel I had regained control over my home and my child.

I really want to keep my job and my career but quite frankly I don't know if I can do it. My return is still a long way away (I have said I'm likely to take a full year which they are fine with) but already the thought of leaving my children again fills me with dread. I want to be the one walking them home from school, helping with homework and tucking them in at night. Rationally I know that isn't the best use of my time and that they will be just as well (or probably even better!) with good childcare, but I can't seem to get over that I want it to be me.

The other issue is that work drains me so much that when I get home I don't have any energy for the children (let alone for DH, friends or hobbies!). I just want DD in bed so I can get some rest or finish my work. Now that I am home I have far more patience and I am enjoying the time with the children so much more.

In an ideal world I would want to put my career on hold for maybe 5 years while children are young, then pick up again where I left off or perhaps try something new. In practice I know that dosesnt work so was hoping to work part time and tread water for a few years, hopefully hang on to my job and my value on the job market... But I am not sure that is possible at all and have seen the concerns raised on here about part time working, which I share.

Or I could go for it, hire an excellent nanny and a housekeeper, and carry on full time. Rationally I think that's what I should do and this thread has given me some encouragement in that direction. But I just don't know if I can do it!

Thank you for this thread which is the most inspiring read I've found on this issue - showing that it is possible (if I could just get over the romantic and probably unrealistic idea of wanting to be there for my family at all times!) Thank you all for listening and for sharing your experiences!

Welcome Brynhilde! I think it is actually easier for those of us who don't particularly yearn to see our DC full time (like me). If you are wishing to be at home full time it must be very hard. I am the opposite of you - I find I have more patience with DD and more energy to have fun with her now that I see her less.

As you'll see above I am a (rare?) subscriber to the "tread water"/part time middle approach. Only been doing it for a few months though so yet to be fully tested!

Brynhilde

Remember - you can always go back and then change things if you don't like it.