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High earning mothers

698 replies

ClarissaG · 26/01/2014 17:29

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

OP posts:
cheminotte · 25/02/2014 07:21

NK - I don't think you need to apologise for raising your issue. Where else are you going to post it? I've often looked for a place to put general employment questions like that. I have that sort of issue a fair amount as the sort of work I do means I need to bring the work of different people together but none of them work for me. So I need to influence them to choose to do the work for me and get it done on time. It can be very frustrating to see someone hasn't even started when its due next week but I've learnt to understand different people have different ways of working. It sounds like you have a procrastinator. Can you sit down and try and coach him / her why they are worried, what is worst case scenario if submitted wrongly / late? Longer term I would recommend 'Art of Speedreading People' - sorry on phone so can't link - to better understand yourself and others.
Hth

ImogenQuy · 25/02/2014 07:26

LauraBridges, I dream of being around at 6 or 7 pm - the problem, as softcookie says, is 14-hour days. I try really hard to get half an hour with DD first thing in the morning on work days as otherwise I wouldn't see her at all between Sunday evening and Saturday morning. I'd be lying if I said I was happy with that, even though I like my job and I'm committed to it.

Mitchell2, I think the answer to being sidelined onto the "mummy track" is probably to move jobs after you come back from maternity leave if things don't improve and if that's possible in your field. It's what I did after DD was born. Very few of the people I work with now even know I have a child, and I never, ever mention her if I have to leave early or come in late for some reason (e.g. I've got a nursery parents' appointment early next week, which means I won't be in the office till half an hour after my usual time - I've just put a note saying "in late" in my diary so no-one books a meeting). No-one has ever batted an eyelid, whereas I'm sure that if I'd even once mentioned needing to leave for DD, people would be muttering and rolling eyes about working mothers.

Congratulations, Ice!

NK, I'm no academic, and my friends who are are in subject areas where it's not all that usual to collaborate, but I don't think you've got any leverage, have you? In your shoes I'd send a polite email (or have a chat if you're comfortable with that) spelling out clearly that the deadline is long past and she needs to do it NOW. And remember not to collaborate with her again if you can avoid it.

BrandyAlexander · 25/02/2014 07:55

NK, I would politely and firmly ask her when she's going to deliver as it's going to have a negative impact on your workload and give a negative impression on both of you. Ask her for a date she can commit to, and also ask whether she's going to negotiate an extension. Be firm. She is being disrespectful.

I said earlier in the thread that since the dcs I have become intolerant of time wasters. I have also become intolerant of people who will do stuff that add hours to my day or make me less efficient.

outtolunchagain · 25/02/2014 07:59

I am the reverse , I do talk about my children at work . I don't rabbit on about them ad nauseum and I don't have photos of them ( I don't do photos at work at all) but my team know that I have children and I know they have too .

If I have to do something with the children , for example ds3 had an important dental appointment yesterday then it's in my diary and people know its not negotiable . I am very clear about my priorities .

I couldn't do the skulking in corners business pretending I have no other responsibilities , that's not me and its not how my male colleagues are expected to behave so why should I .

kalidasa · 25/02/2014 08:59

Yes I do mention DS as well, though not a great deal. I also mention him from time to time when I'm teaching, as I think it's quite important that the students see that women as well as men can have a family and be enjoying their job and not finding the juggling too impossible, or at least finding it worth doing. Sounds obvious but there is no other woman in my (quite large) department in that bracket.

NK these situations are v. difficult in academia because as you say there is rarely any clear chain of command, and also there are essentially no repercussions, except in general career/reputation terms - and that's often a much more important factor for one person than other (e.g. more established) contributors. Could you say something like - sorry you are still stuck on the ending of the article, I always find endings difficult too; I would really like to submit it by [realistic but soon date] though. Do you want to get together on Friday morning to spend an hour putting the finishing touches to it together?

This is friendly but serious, and might shame her into either finishing it and sending it yourself, or at least agreeing to the meeting (which I appreciate takes up more of your time but would at least move things forward, and might tacitly give you permission to take over and sort out the problem).

If that doesn't work I think you just have to accept that it's stymied for now and try to let it go so it's not using up emotional energy; as you're not lead author you can't I think just insist on finishing it yourself.

Although it is infuriating I do think it is worth keeping your temper in these situations, if only because academia is so small and the person you get cross with is bound to be asked to review your work or an application at some point. And also I have found that most people (though not all!) do appreciate and remember when you are patient and professional and that can reap rewards eventually - they will feel like they owe you.

I have a similar situation at the moment. I am editing a very large book with around twenty-five mostly very senior contributors from around the world. All the chapters have now been in for over six months (and some came in a couple of years ago, due to staggered deadlines) but I am STILL waiting for the second half from a certain v. senior German scholar who is now around a year late. It is driving me absolutely mad because the entire project is held up just for him - and I really wanted it finished before a second pregnancy because I know I will be out of action - and there is essentially nothing I can do about it - the pay for these things is so incredibly negligible as to be insignificant; his reputation is already secure; if I dropped the chapter the gap would be very obvious; and there is perhaps one other person in the world who could do a decent job on this topic, and I asked him first!

I have felt better recently though after sharing this problem with a colleague in Austria editing a fairly similar volume. It turns out that he has three such offenders (which makes me feel like a successful manager!) and also we shared our list of problem contributors so as to pool information about who not to ask in the future! At the same time this has reinforced my good working relationship with this colleague, who is more junior than senior German but is undoubtedly going to be one of the two or three leading scholars in the field within ten years (hopefully I'll be another of them!).

NK5BM3 · 25/02/2014 09:37

thanks everyone! it's made me feel alot better venting here.

I'll be chatting with author 2 later today hopefully (as we are probably meeting up on thursday evening in London after a whole day of meetings, to talk about another project that the two of us are doing)... and will write an email along the lines of what Kalidasa suggested. will let you know how that goes.

She's generally quite a procrastinator. She had a long-term collaborator (a prof) who after about 10 years, threw in the towel. She produced quite a few significant articles with this prof but finally the prof gave up I think - she was retiring anyway and didn't need more hassle, felt that she was writing with my colleague for the sake of my colleague's future rather than her own... so decided to just retire. told my colleague to 'sod off' and colleague was devastated.

colleague is also involved in another project (privately - ie not work related) and her timescale for that has gone beyond ridiculous. let's just put it this way, other people have built houses in less time than she has done her kitchen.

so I guess I need to put work before friendship and just say firmly, enough's enough. I was actually thinking that maybe on thursday evening, with the other author, we can just put something together and tell her - ta-daa, just submit it!!!

would that be enabling her? or would that just annoy her?

BusinessUnusual · 25/02/2014 09:45

Can you let her know you are meeting up and will be able to draft something for her review as you know she is busy and sometimes it helps to have a starting point? Say one if you us going away on X date so you want to do everything you can to submit by then?

I have a colleague who works much better if someone else does the first draft which he then redoes. She might be the same?

louloutheshamed · 25/02/2014 10:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kalidasa · 25/02/2014 10:26

NK as long as you can avoid working with her much or at all in the future, I don't think it matters if it is enabling her!! Be ruthless and do whatever you need to resolve the situation. It will be to her advantage too at least in the short term to have the thing finished, especially if she still gets to be first author. She may have survived many similar situations in the past by delaying and delaying until eventually other people do all the work, which is v. irritating, but if you and the third author bashing something out is what it takes to get it done and - most importantly - to get rid of it as a source of angst then I think it's probably worth it. You can be very polite and friendly about it now but still (politely) refuse further collaboration in the future on the grounds that you don't want to be in that situation again. Good luck with it! It is SO annoying when you are busy-but-efficient and other people are useless.

Ithinkwerealonenow · 25/02/2014 12:07

loulou I think that completely outs Laura, I've just been able to find who she is based on that. Might be good to ask for your post to be removed?

LauraBridges · 25/02/2014 12:24

On whether to mention children at work I've always just done it where I thought it was helpful. For example not everyone realises you can have 5 children and work happily full time so if it's good to make that clear to encourage others then I would.

I am quite happy these days to say to most clients (not all) where I am off to - last term accompanying the twins on the piano in their music exams but I would careful who it is said to. If a client has no children or would love them and is infertile or hates them then it's not a great idea to go on about them. Depends on the situation.

I can sympathise on the writing stuff. I suspect one reason I do so much of it (as long as I am paid) is I tend to do it on time and many people don't (and I understand why they don't because it is hard to fit in).

(It's okay. I am probably the only female in my profession with 5 children and my own island or who wrote 30 books - in other words not too hard to find on a search, although I don't deliberately out myself. I didn't even know Women's Hour was on in the mornings as I only ever listen on iplayer so assumed it would not be live, not that it mattered. Very interesting morning so far.)

BusinessUnusual · 25/02/2014 12:58

I do now and again and have been told by other women that it's good to know a woman in my profession can combine working and children.

Mitchell2 · 25/02/2014 13:12

Mentioning children at work is a funny one - I with my ever expanding belly cannot not acknowledge that I am going to have a child but I do have a younger woman (late 20's) who works for me who has two and for a good 8 months of her working for me quite closely I didn't even know about it.

I respect the rights for people to talk about what they want, but I also can see how it can work against people by not acknowledging the fact you have other priorities outside of work.

This person in question has a bit of a reputation of being young and carefree and someone who goes out all the time, as she often comes in tired, or leaves on time as she has 'plans' - when the reality is that she has two primary school aged children and is a single mum!

PotatoesPastaAndBread · 25/02/2014 13:22

Laura, I just listened to Woman's Hour on iPlayer. Quite a different take on the issue than I expected - more consensus in the group they had put together than I expected. Would have been great to have a man on the panel. Or someone who had taken a lengthy maternity leave.

And to everyone else.... this week I have ordered three new books, put myself forward to speak at an event and reassessed my next move to focus on a role that is likely to come up soon but that I wasn't going to go for. Now I think I will. All as a result of joining this thread.

I have leaned right in.

NK5BM3 · 25/02/2014 13:50

well done Potatoes! :)

well, we (my other author and I) have sent a naggy email asking about the paper. we'll see what the reply is.

in the meantime, I now have a meta-analysis to plough through. ah.

LauraBridges · 25/02/2014 14:29

Potatoes, well done for leaning in.

As for the radio I was prepared to be pummelled into submission for suggesting many men and women like to work and have children rather than be home all the time and that returning quickly may be best for babies. Apparently the live comments/tweets during the programme are usually from mothers at home who are obviously keen to make their case for that and then working parents tend to comment much later when they get home and listen to the podcast so the different viewpoints from listeners on these issues (which sadly seem still be regarded as a female issue when in fact for many couples they are a parent issue) arrive at different times of the day/week on to the programme.

On the media it is not really that hard if you're interested to get involved. For example in the very first gulf war I wrote an article on what the law is on being "at war" which anyone with a good degree could research. That article was published then Sky News kept having me on with my name and "International Lawyer" flashing up as my description. It was fun at the time and it showed me how it is not that hard to make a reputation for yourself in a particular area (not that I do advise on warfare although I would not be unhappy with that - better than makeup or fashion).

As with all these things it takes a chunk out of the day and I need to be leaving at 4.30 for a school thing so even with 15 year olds there remain those pressures but much easier than with under 5s.

Back to work now.....

LauraBridges · 25/02/2014 14:33

Ah and my brother by coincidence is in the Telegraph today he says so I was able to reply with Woman's Hour.

minipie · 25/02/2014 14:51

hello all, congratulations Ice! and well done Potatoes and Laura.

Well I have discovered an unexpected benefit of being a working mother... I was ill yesterday, thankfully I was able to leave work earlyish and have a couple of hours in bed with blackberry while nanny looked after DD. Had I been a SAHM I'd have had to soldier on. (of course today I have had to come to work despite still being ill but that's still probably easier than looking after DD!)

There are a few negative comments in recent posts on this thread re part time/mummy track. Just to balance those out with a positive view:

I am part time and in some ways I am mummy tracked, in that my partnership/promotion prospects are currently nil. However, I don't see this as a negative. I am still doing interesting work at the same level as before mat leave, but much to my surprise I am able to get out at a reasonable time (6pm) and am not doing much work in the evenings/day off/weekends. The pressure is off me a bit because it's clear I'm not pushing for promotion. This works perfectly for me for now. In future once DC are older I hope to be able to lean back in and get back on the promotion ladder but right now I don't feel able to do that (eg was woken 5 times by sick toddler last night...). So I view my current part time arrangement as a "holding pattern" to keep my options open. Of course only time will tell whether it's possible to lean back in having leaned out a bit (there are not many examples of this) but I hope so.

Softcookie · 25/02/2014 16:33

Leaving at 4.30... School events... I am unable to do any of it, let alone things like having my hair done, exercise, have a life. I left the office at 10pm last night.

So to be honest I think the option of leaning in is being forced out of my hands. This is not an issue of balancing and prioritising. It's just that no one, man or woman, can balance a private life with regular 60-70 hours weeks. Well my bosses can but they all have wives who do not work (and domestic help to boot). I know these women from dd's private school and I resent them hugely for their golden lives.

It's so black and white isn't it. I'm so fed up and will eventually end up quitting... Then be depressed at having given up work and financial independence.

I can't see a way out right now.

Sorry to be a downer in such an uplifting and motivating thread. I can't identify with your positive spin on life unfortunately any more than I can identify with sahms...

IceNoSlice · 25/02/2014 16:45

Thank you all for the congratulations Smile
We're in the honeymoon phase where she sleeps all the time and DH is at home so easy peasy!

Laura I listened to your piece - well done. Interesting that the NCT's slant was far more about equality for fathers than enhancing rights further for mothers.

Minipie thank you for your alternative take on PT and mummy track not always being a bad thing. You have some very valid points. Especially reading softcookie's post after yours. I think it depends in the circumstances, employer etc. What does strike me is that you are 'keeping your hand in' and perhaps maintaining a position rather than accelerating. (I do apologise for the mixed metaphors in that sentence)! But you should be able to avoid the backwards step so many women take when they take time out completely.

Softcookie I'm so sorry you're feeling so down at the moment. Have you felt this way long or is it related to specific events/project? Before you quit completely to be SAHM, do you have other options - PT like Minipie describes above? Talk to a mentor? Move firms?

Softcookie · 25/02/2014 16:56

I moved firms 6 months ago. From the frying pan straight into the fire...

MrsWobble · 25/02/2014 17:16

Softcookie - don't know if this helps at all but I discovered that the following two questions really helped when considering late night working.

  1. Does this work really need to be done tonight?
  2. Does this work need to be done by me?

Only if I could answer yes to both would I stay and when this happened it had been my decision so I felt a bit more in control. I don 't know what your role is so it may be impractical - but I recommend trying it if it might work.

It does require you to get a bit stroppy sometimes but that's not actually a bad thing in my experience. Too often I found myself inconveniencing myself to avoid upsetting others, without even establishing that they would or should be upset. I couldn't do this until I had children but after that found prioritising much easier.

minipie · 25/02/2014 17:38

Softcookie you said you tried PT in your previous firm and were immediately mummy tracked so you left. Can I ask, what do you mean by "mummy tracked" - were you just not considered for promotion (like me) or were you being given crappy work/no work or something like that? As I say above I think some versions of "mummy track" could be acceptable - and better than jacking it in entirely - whilst others of course are not.

Ice exactly, I am maintaining a position rather than dropping out of the game altogether - hopefully with the result that I can rev up again when I get more sleep in future if I want to.

MrsWobble I agree with your tests. However in some industries or at some levels of seniority the answer will usually be "yes"... It gets easier to delay or delegate as you get more senior I think. Also easier in non client facing jobs.

BusinessUnusual · 25/02/2014 18:13

Soft cookie, is your DH carrying an equal burden?

I think I said upthread that we have both been "parent tracked" a bit as we have limited ability to go abroad/schmooze in the evenings. But by sharing things we at least have some ability and are maintaining/edging forward rather than leaping forward.

It is a rare person in a two career household that can move as fast as one in a one career one SAHP household so c

BusinessUnusual · 25/02/2014 18:16

...comparing your work life with men with SAHWs and your home life to "golden wives" will never make you feel good, you are doing both so you are more kickass than either of those two groups!