High earning mothers

[ClarissaG]

I'm interested to start a discussion group for Mums and Mums to be who are juggling (or planning to juggle) a high flying career and motherhood. I loath to use the term 'Power Mums', but those who earn enough (£100k plus) to afford a team of help, but have the kind of pressures and working hour expectations that that level of salary brings.

I read the Mumsnet Guest blog with interest (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_blogs/1977242-Why-is-society-so-unsupportive-of-high-achieving-power-mums) but the comments less so.

Is there scope for a supportive group for such Mums with practical ideas, experiences and thoughts rather than judgement about whether we can 'have it all'?

I am mid thirties, a VC, 12 weeks pregnant and have not yet told my fellow partners. I want it all but have no idea if that is realistic or how my future is going to pan out!

I agree with minipie. At the moment I don't really feel torn because to be honest I didn't enjoy maternity leave and although DS is at a lovely age now (15 months) I know I'd go crazy very quickly if I was looking after him all day. I realise I might feel differently at later stages though, or after a second child.

Brynhilde I remember feeling like that with my y second maternity leave. I didn't enjoy my first maternity leave, took 6 months when my peers were having at least 9 months if not the full year. But the second time was different - ds1 was 3 , there was a structure from taking him to pre school. At one point I did consider not going back. And I ended up taking the full year. . By then I was ready to go back. The friends I had made on maternity leave were professional women like myself and I were going back. I knew if I stayed at home there would be no nursery until ds2 was 3 and I was beginning to doubt my abilities. I did go back part time for a few years so I still had one day at home with ds2 and did some school pick ups as well.

So what I'm trying to say is don't feel you have to decide now. Enjoy your time off, keep in touch and see how you feel in 6 months.

My professional abilities that is.

Thank you all. Minipie - I did see your comments about part time and found them very helpful. I am not sure though that it is even an option for me however in my current role.

One thing that has struck me reading through the thread is how many prefer their work to looking after the children. I would like to feel that way too but I just don't! I like my job a lot but I would prefer spending time with the children to being in the office any day.

I suppose that is why I am looking for a happy medium. But may have to accept that this will have implications for my career - people promoted ahead of me etc which I'm not used to as I've always given work 110% in the past.

Hopefully I'll have all this figured out by the time I'm due back in 9 months time!

I think the main thing brynhilde is to be able to be honest with yourself (as you are) about what your real preferences are and what you find most rewarding. I think a lot of us on this particular thread find it very refreshing to be able to write honestly about preferring work to childcare, and loving our children but not really feeling "fulfilled" by them in the way we are by other aspects of our lives. But that's not to say that is the usual experience, even among highly-trained women who enjoy their work. Certainly here on mumsnet - which seems to have quite a high proportion of that constituency - my impression is that more women feel as you do.

If what you would really like to do is be completely at home for five years, is that worth exploring? Do you think your statement that you would always prefer to be with the children than in the office would still be true if there wasn't an office (as it were)? What about the possibilities of developing other kinds of work - consultancy, freelance, writing about your area etc - that might allow you to move sideways or have more flexibility?

I was struck by your remark that working drains your energy for your children/relationship. I am like minipie - working full-time frees me up to enjoy being with DS when I am. If I really can't work - as during (almost all of) my shocker of a pregnancy or in the early days with DS - I get very depressed. It is energising rather than energy-draining for me, whereas being with DS is lovely but it is still a net drain to be honest!

Interesting what cheminotte says about enjoying the second leave more. I hope I might feel the same. Also our plan is to keep the nanny (whom we're looking for now) on during that leave and I think that will help. We didn't get enough help last time, and I underestimated how long it would take me to recover physically from my pregnancy complications. I also just found it lonely.

The citymothers thing looks fantastic, and I actually work close to the City. I would love to join but I'm not sure how strict they are about the sor of work you are doing as obviously I am not really their target market. I'll investigate though!

It's about getting the balance that works for you and your household. There's quite a range on this thread: minipie has positive experience of part-time, and a lot of others are writing very positively about full-time (including roles with travelling).

I absolutely could not, ever, be at home with DD full time, and I would also be vile to live with if I were sidelined into a crappy job as a result of wanting to work shorter hours. At the moment I've got the balance wrong for me, because I don't want to work 12-14 hours a day, 5 days a week: I do want to be around more for DH and DD than I am (and to be less exhausted when I am here - though like kalidasa I find being with DD more exhausting than being at work!). But I'm not particularly motivated by money, and if I could find an interesting and stretching role that I could do in four long days a week, I'd go for it like a shot provided it paid the bills.

Brynhilde, does your workplace have a career break scheme? I know it's not common in the City, but if there is one it might be a thing to think about if you go back after ML and find it isn't the right thing for you.

I never liked staying late at work before I worked for myself unless it were one occasional exciting deal or something obviously urgent. It feels different now I work for myself but then I totally control the hours and most of the work. We fixed a 2 or 3 hour meeting for Saturday. I don't think I need to be there physically. They are going to dial me into it and that's a good compromise. I'll get paid for it and someone else is leading it so it will be a dead easy bit of work but had I not had the power to say I didn't need to come into London for it it would take twice as long once I'd commuted in and mean I was away from the house (not the teenagers really need me here but I prefer not to drag myself out there when a call will do it, no need to get changed, can do other things when the calls going on to an extent or shut my eyes and doze).

I do think changes can be good. Moving companies or offices etc. My daughter is about to be seconded - still in the City - and is looking forward to leaving at 6.30 every day for a change.

As people are saying everyone is different. I think many women do want a balance of work and home and not just to be home (as of course do most men too). I genuinely prefer a day working to a day looking after a baby, toddler and 4 year old although I certainly always liked the weekends too but only because I'd had the week at work and that was a change. I still need peace and time on my own which is hard to get with younger children and much easier to get with older ones.

I said on R4 this week that for me 16 hours of childcare and housework is boring. It is for many people. There's nothing wrong with saying how you feel. I don't think people should have to self censor on the point. It is also very hard and constant physicla work as usually if you have more than 1 or 2 small children a never a second free experience plus most of us are also at the same time trying to stack the dishwasher and tidy up never mind stop the toddler killing the baby (although with our last - twins - it was easier than 2 of different ages as neither has more strength than the other so their battles are even and our twins seemed (and still seem) to be nicer to each other than siblings who aren't twins).

Brynhilde, two things that have helped me are firstly, being brave and creative about how you work and secondly being clear on my priorities.

I like working and like everyone else love my kids. I don't have the skills or patience to be a sahm so I go to work, however, they are my priority in my life. In order to achieve this, I have had a good balance between work and family over the last 5 years by being flexible, creative and as I say brave about how I work. This meant that for the first 4 years as a parent, I worked from home 2, days a week, and on one of those days, I didn't start working till the afternoon, because i spent the morning with my dcs. The 3 days in the office, I breakfasted with the dcs and was home for bedtime 95% of the time. I am very clear with everyone that I love what I do, I am great at what I do, but my dcs come first hence that was a good balance. When I first told a few people that's how I was thinking of working I was advised by well meaning colleagues that it wouldn't work for clients, colleagues, staff and the powers that be. I decided that this was my throw myself in a ditch moment and stuck with my plans and it's really worked. I give my example because I genuinely don't think it has to be one extreme path or another and that there might be a middle path there if you are senior enough or have sufficient sponsorship to create it.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. I do think its all about balance rather than calling it quits - would love to find a part time / freelance / self employed option to tide me over for a few years while children are young so could still do drop offs, nativity plays, etc, while continuing to be stimulated and keeping my foot in. Just not sure at the moment what form that would take.

I myself am surprised that I feel this way after having children as my career has always been a core part of who I am (and I confess I had little sympathy with colleagues leaving early to pick up children before I had any of my own). And my colleagues would be even more surprised!

We dont have any formal schemes and would be tricky as my role is very niche. Part time in my office is 4.5 days and is frowned upon, as is taking any form of unpaid leave.

So interesting that all of you feel energised by work. I have always left the office exhausted - just as much these days as when i was doing 16 hour days in investment banking 15 years ago! I visited the office the other week and everyone was saying how well rested and relaxed I look - despite looking after 2 children full time and the broken nights.

I have a lot of soul searching to do about what i really want. In the meantime i will continie to read the perspectives on this thread with interest!

Novice, that's inspirational. I'm currently pondering quirking structures with DH.

Novice thank you for that perspective, sounds like exactly the sort of outcome i would love to achieve. Can i ask how you approached this with your manager / employer? For me, its made trickier by the fact that there are (coincidentally) four of us on maternity leave (of which I am the most senior) and although in theory i should have some leverage i know they will be reluctant to treat us differently, and would want me to lead by example.

Quirking??

Working!

(At least it wasn't twerking!)

Thanks BusinessUnusual!

BrynHilde - being in a niche area gives you a great reason to value yourself highly. Your company can either have a flexible version of a highly prized asset (that's you btw!) or have the costs and hassle of replacing you.

A friend (and female colleague) always says to me you have to back yourself first before any else will.

Brynhilde, most of my family are psychiatrists (not that that necessarily gives me deep insight of course.... but it helps). Whether someone feels happy depends on very basic things like are you getting enough sleep, do you drink enough water, do you eat good whole foods, do you get any exercise or sunshine and of course whether you are ill or in pain. Those things determine the levels of seratonin in the brain and straightens out dopamine levels and helps beta endorphin levels. So it may be being home with the children you are out on vigorous walks and eating better whereas at a screen for 14 hours you aren't and perhaps you can change things when you work to ensure those elements can be fitted in (not easy of course).

I try to break the day up when things aren't too busy. I'll take myself off for a steam at the gym for half an hour and then come back to work feeling better (not easy for most workers although people do use the gym in lunch breaks). When I was at a big City firm a good while ago I had a phase of swimming in my lunch break for half an hour.

I certainly find working for myself gives me the chance to ensure those things can be better taken care of. Ever since I started basing my business from home I have found life much nicer too (no commute except the days when I have a meeting etc).

Laura, you've mentioned that you have your own business. I was wondering whether you employ other women at all - and if so what you feel from an employer's perspective on PT working etc?

Laura - interesting points.

I worked in psychiatry all my life and what you are describing is Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, an important part of managing ones own life and that of our clients.

Without sleep, good diet and exercise and a place of shelter both psychologically and literally, we cannot generate the more esoteric and human rewards of life.

When my children were very young and i was far more junior I felt not only energised by my work but positively euphoric at times - the sense of purpose was intense. I was constantly studying too gaining post grads and Ma and It was very important that my children saw that women worked and women gained huge rewards in a myriad of ways from this.

I was able to plan how I achieved maximum child care harmony, moving near to family caregivers and moving onto nurseries and then preschool balanced by a nanny share. I always had a three level contingency although I am aware that not all can do this and to a certain extent, money will buy peace of mind re childcare. Changing from my position as deputy ward manager to community case manager and then CMHT manager allowed me to move to 8-5 and only do one weekend in 4 as on call site manager. What you lost in patient contact you gain in child contact which was better as they got older and needed more time-time. I found babies and toddlers more amenable to a loving family/nanny sub whereas older kids want you.

I could not be a SAHM - it would have driven me loopy. I'm not very good at the toddler group, coffee morning thing and I suspect I would have been very isolated had I been at home all day and in the late 80's to mid 90's chatting online was not an option. I hate housework and gain no sense of achievement from it so I outsource the bits I don't want to do.

My children are adults now and both very career-career. Daughter absolutely does not want children and feels they are a definite impediment to the travelling high pressure career she is building where working days are frequently 18 hours long and well into the night. She graduated because she wanted that experience but her chosen career depends on a natural ability finely honed - not taught at any university. I do wonder whether my own choices have affected what my children have planned for themselves- daughter is approaching her thirties so her choice seems well established now.

BrynHilde, I have 2 perspectives on this. I am senior enough not to have a "boss" per say but there are "the powers that be". My approach to my conversation was to be confident and firm about what I wanted and to go into the conversation articulating it. I certainly didn't want to give the impression that I was asking for permission as people's natural inclination is to say no to anything novel.

Ice, I don't have any employees. It's a lot simpler that way. I have a few self employed contractors doing various tasks. They can do them whenever they can manage it. As long as it is done on time they can do it in the day, in the night or whenever and it's done by email.

Mignonette, that's interesting on the hierarchy of needs. In fact prozac (which by the way I've never taken) also raises seratonin levels etc but the more natural ways are probably good enough for many people who don't have clinical depression and are just a bit fed up or tired (not that I am suggesting anyone on this thread has depression, most people seem quite happy as am I).

I think children do take some things from their parents. My mother was a feminist and kept my father for years through her teaching earnings. I am sure my father was too and supported female careers and education. I don't however have any aim to produce 5 children who are identical to me and their views. In fact I love it when mine are teenagers and have very different views. What I want most of all is that they actually do have views on things. So if any of my sons or daughters chooses not to work or live on the dole or go to Thailand to live on a beach or whatever that is up to them as long as they make informed choices and know the consequences. I think if they can have them my older daughter will have children as she and her new husband have mentioned it but when is up to them. My other daughter is just like I am - if we see a baby we adore it and tell each other so I would be surprised if she had none. As long as I get one grandchild out of my 5 children I will be happy.

Every generation has always had people who don't have children. The traditional Victorian maiden aunts (and uncles) were always there and even earlier in the 1600s many women joined convents to avoid husband and children duties often deliberately so.

I think what is striking about the way both novice and laura describe how they sorted things out is their confidence - especially their confidence in the value of what they have to offer. This is such an important thing to teach and pass down! When I was at an early stage of my career, in a very prestigious but poorly paid research position in Oxford - the sort of thing you do because it opens a lot of later doors - I caused a minor scandal by refusing to apply for a job there, although I had been invited to do so by someone very senior, because Oxford still have totally scandalous positions that rely on extremely clever and motivated people being prepared to do a huge amount of very high level teaching, as well as (supposedly) find time to pursue their own research, on a wage that makes it impossible even to live on your own in Oxford, let alone join a gym, go on a decent holiday, start a family or any of the other things that might help to keep you sane in a very highly pressured position (it was c. £14,000). I said clearly that I was worth more than that and that I had no interest in perpetuating a system which essentially relies upon cultivating neurosis in very clever but emotionally vulnerable people, and, in particular, repeatedly appoints women disproportionately to positions that screw them up and stymie their careers. s

What is frustrating is that it comes down partly to sheer nerve. I had the nerve to say that (and be prepared to consider other career possibilities if nothing else came through, confident that I would make a go of it); I have also had the nerve to take a calculated risk for possible high rewards several times in my career already (e.g. I have switched disciplines at an unusually late stage so had to 'repackage' myself), and even now I am in the process of making very major and ambitious grant applications (for academia that is! pretty piddling sums for most of you, I'm sure) even though we are also hoping to have a second baby soon and realistically the pregnancy is going to be horrendous. I was planning to do this now anyway but I really did find the 'lean in' book good on how it is sensible to push forward really hard just before you anticipate having to step back for a bit (e.g. pregnancy or mat leave) rather than thinking that you should wait till afterwards.

V. interesting point from laura that the attractions of home vs. office may really be as much about the associated lifestyle as the actual content of the work.

I think I am the "voice of what could be" for some of you here, though I never moved to London.

I qualified with a regional legal practice in the nineties, DH did the same. I have better academic qualifications than he does and I trained with a higher-prestige firm. I took the full nine months of mat leave available to me at that time and this was unusual and was resented and placed me firmly on the mummy track. We had no family support available and tried to manage with only a(n excellent) nursery. Since working 9-5 was viewed as being part time work at the firm I was at, I eventually moved to a high street practice and worked three days a week.

When the children hit upper juniors - entrance exam time - DH had the lead role when his firm bought out another practice and hit a busy period. I was in court a lot and we had no back up. I gave up work for a couple of years and it made me miserable. I now work 18hrs pw in a job which would pay £20k pa full time. I have responsibility for almost all the "home stuff". I have a cleaner and a gardener, the kids are happy and successful in independent schools and we are happy enough.

We now have two teenage children, I have never earned more than £40k and DH is an equity partner (old terminology I know) who in recent years has had a profit share of £250-350k. I am 44 and really don't know what I will do work wise for the next few years. I have no current experience, no practising certificate and a lot fewer options than I used to have. And I think this is very much the usual and predictable consequence of the decisions that I took.

So be careful, those of you that are considering stepping down a bit - could you live with this?

PS - I think everyone who has been on here for a while knows who Laura is and who she used to be known as.

JohnnyUtah thank you for your post. I think that is the exact scenario - albeit without being abandoned for a younger woman - that is the fear for so many.

With hindsight, or with a view to a repeat of your situation in today's workplace, what would you do differently? Is there one point you see as a turning point? Or a series of opportunities?

kalisada you are so right about sheer nerve to ask for (or just do) a working arrangement that suits you. I was given that nerve, partly due to confidence in my abilities/the department's need for my skills, but mainly because due to DH's earnings I do not need to work and therefore it would not have been the end of the world if my firm had said no or if even I had been edged out as a result. I had nothing to lose by asking.

Johnny that's very interesting and I agree that "leaning out" could be a slippery slope. I guess it's a question of knowing where on that slope you will be happy and making sure you don't slide below that level. What jumps out at me from your post is this bit: "Since working 9-5 was viewed as being part time work at the firm I was at, I eventually moved to a high street practice and worked three days a week." Why was it such a problem to be viewed as part time for doing 9-5? Why did it mean you felt you had to leave? Were you made to feel that they would rather not have you at all?

I hate being viewed as part time, even though that's what I am. I've got a very tall order (sort out a team) with not enough personnel and rebel directs that think they know better than I. I've had such a problem in the past and solved it by working harder than everyone else, which I obviously cannot do on a part time basis.

I could go back to full time and have a successful career but I would probably come home crying every other day. I lack the fortitude to let it all roll off my back.

That's why I'm considering a sabbatical and then working for myself as a contractor.

Hmmm.

To answer the second questions first, I suppose I was made to feel unwanted. "Part timer" was regularly used as a jovial term of abuse, not just to me (possibly not at all directly to me) but to anyone who left soon after 5pm or arrived late, whatever the reason. There was a real culture of presenteeism, jackets on the backs of chairs and so on. It was embedded in the culture of the firm at the time. I asked to reduce my hours and this was refused, just before I left.

With hindsight, I never had the passion for my work that some of you have. I went into law because I could - I enjoyed my degree, I was academically very good, I relished the intense competition involved in getting a training contract and then being kept on afterwards. I don't think I ever thought very clearly about what the job would entail. This now feeds into not knowing what I want to do - I'm not sure I ever did, really!

That's very interesting Johnny. Maybe it would be worth accessing some kind of careers counseling? This might give you a chance to work out what you actually enjoy doing, in relatively abstract terms (e.g. working alone or as part of a team; intellectual or practical challenges; performance; writing), and also to think through what jobs or careers contain those elements. A few years ago the job market in my field was almost non existent and I was near the end of a temporary contract so I spent a month or two thinking quite carefully about why I enjoyed my job so much and what other sorts of jobs had a similar profile of tasks/demands. I was lucky because I was working in a university so able to see a careers adviser to help with this process. In the end I didn't pursue my list of possible alternatives very far as I got my current job (which is a permanent one) but it was still a very useful and invigorating experience and just the process of asking around elicited lots of very interesting stories from people I had admired about what else they had considered doing.

It is also very interesting to hear these stories for me as although I am not a careers adviser I am a personal tutor for about twenty-thirty students at any one time and speak to them regularly about their career plans. Law conversion is a very common choice, and while some of them obviously have a genuine interest it is definitely a "fall back" for a lot of them too, or they are attracted because they know it is prestigious and competitive. It is a good idea to ask them to think about the difference between being excited by the process of getting into a field (of applying, playing the game of applications and interviews etc) and the reality of the job (what you would actually do all day in any given role). Some careers are also problematic I think in that the 'training' period does not really resemble the actual job. This is perhaps unusually true in academia - doing a PhD (especially in the humanities) is not really anything like being a lecturer or a professor or a senior administrator in an HE institution, unless you are one of a tiny fraction who pursue an essentially research-only career.