Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Thread gallery
18
Whaeanui · 14/04/2023 15:26

You can be of the opinion that they are wrong to believe that

It’s not an opinion. Some things are objective facts. I really also don’t agree ‘quite a lot of people’ think that. Otherwise surely I would know at least one. Surely surveys or polls would support that. But they don’t.

Downwithitall · 14/04/2023 15:28

Hurrah! That's my vote decided. Well said PM.

Sharkyto · 14/04/2023 15:35

Of course it’s a privilege to vote on a single issue. Lots of women believe (know) women don’t have penis’ but they’re more concerned with ensuring women can house and feed their kids, heat their homes, get access to health care etc. Correctly identifying the class of people in which your policies disproportionately disadvantage, doesn’t mean you’re automatically the best party for them, far from it.

Floisme · 14/04/2023 15:35

Thank you for replying noblegiraffe . I appreciate it.

I notice you didn't actually say whether or not you yourself think the statement is objectionable. No need to answer if you don't wish to but doesn't this demonstrate Labour's problem - that they're trying to pretend there's no conflict or that it's not important, when in fact the longer they delay facing up to it the worse it's going to be for them?

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2023 15:37

Whaeanui · 14/04/2023 15:26

You can be of the opinion that they are wrong to believe that

It’s not an opinion. Some things are objective facts. I really also don’t agree ‘quite a lot of people’ think that. Otherwise surely I would know at least one. Surely surveys or polls would support that. But they don’t.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fxd37bxwwh/Internal_Prisons_230130.pdf

Very recent polling on transgender prisoners:

A majority of people think that male transgender criminals (non-sex crime) who don't have a penis belong in a women's prison.

Just under a quarter of those polled think that they still belong in a women's prison even if they have a penis. And 34% of previous Labour voters.

That seems to be quite a lot of people thinking they either are women, or should be treated as women.

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fxd37bxwwh/Internal_Prisons_230130.pdf

fuzzbearpenguin · 14/04/2023 15:40

@Ourladycheesusedatum re read my post. Where have I said I vote Labour?

And the face that you say 'calling us morons' indicates that you are admitting to voting on a sound bite. Yes, I stand by that being moronic.

Datun · 14/04/2023 15:41

BreadInCaptivity · 14/04/2023 15:26

I am fed up to the back teeth of the assertion that single issue voting over women's rights is a "luxury".

Quite aside from the (not so) stealth misogyny that female voters should sacrifice their rights for the "greater good", the concept that I should vote for a party that has been ideologically captured by an ideology to the extent it is prepared to issue statements that defy biology is laughable.

Labour has a real credibility problem here, that transcends the issue of self id and women's rights.

When a man who is putting himself forward as the next PM goes on record saying that women can have a penis, it's only logical that some voters are going to question his fitness for the role when he's demonstrated that he is not only prepared to warp his own sense of reality but gaslight the public into doing the same.

Why should I believe Stammer about anything, about any policy?

How can I trust him to lead, rather than to be led?

Which other ideologies will Labour fall foul of that come under the category of batshit crazy because when they win the "trans war" SJW's and Stonewall will need to find another cause celebre to maintain their incomes and social purity?

So stop with this idea that it's up to women to vote for Labour regardless of their intention to dismantle our rights and start looking to place the blame of Labour risking losing the next election where it belongs - squarely with the party itself.

I'm looking at bloody Bud Lite who have lost 5 billion now, is it? And still won't apologise to women for their disgustingly misogynistic advertising, because they are afraid of the trans lobby.

If our politicians are so shit scared of transactivists, it tells me a lot. It's like the gun lobby, or the tobacco lobby.

Who would be frightened of people, unless it is tied it to money and power? What power do transactivists have over Kier Starmer?

Every time a politician came on here to do a web chat, I asked them what they were scared of. Until I got suspended even for asking. And we know why that was. Because mumsnet would lose money on the back of withdrawn advertising.

So what is Kier Starmer so afraid of and why?

ColdMeg · 14/04/2023 15:42

Datun · 14/04/2023 13:08

And for those wondering why something hasn't been done already, because it's self evident about the direction of travel, it's not that long ago where I was personally told, how ridiculous I was being.

You can generally sort disagreeing posters into transactivists and non transactivists on here.

So ignoring transactivists, many perfectly normal, every day women simply did not believe that it would be at all likely that men would be put in women's prisons, or would be permitted to play women's sport.

'It just won't happen', was the prevailing thought.

Even on FWR. Which is made up mostly of feminists. There were quite a few women who still didn't think it possible. And that it was ludicrous even thinking so. And AIBU thought that FWR was wrong, and on the wrong side of history

But now, the 'totally ludicrous' is fast becoming the completely normal.

And judging by Canada, America, New Zealand, etc, it's the tip of the iceberg.

Students at a prestigious university can lock a well known, record-breaking swimmer into a room for three hours, demanding money for her release because she says sex is real, or men can break the skull of a pensioner for the same viewpoint.

These things are happening. And we're absolutely on the same path here.

Personally I think gender ideology is only the beginning of the issues for our government.

The violence towards women is going unchecked.

TRAs would be fuming about prisons, and sport, but toilets? Changing rooms? It's where most of them get their jollies! Not to mention all the rest of them who like to stick it to women by trampling on their boundaries.

The violence against women over this issue is utterly shocking. And altho part of me thinks because Rishi is male, he won't get the same pushback, I'd be surprised if he hasn't unleashed something that he was not expecting.

I want the entire country to see it.

So personally, anything that gets this front and centre, is a plus in my opinion.

I can second this as true.

It's been a long journey for me, and started way back in 2013. I could see the issues immediately, but, even then, I didn't actually think they would go so far as to actually place male sex offenders in women's prisons. I thought the powers that be would intervene before that occurred, before that line was crossed.

As we now know, they did not.

The hardest thing for me to process in all of this is not that the powers did not intervene per se, but that there was no line.

That terrifies me. The implications terrify me. For what is then stopping all manner of chaos? Across all manner of governance? Who then is saying: "This and no further"? Who is saying: "Enough"?

Yet still, Starmer cannot recognise that he is fuelling the politics of pandemonium. For that is what this is: pandemonium. TRAs are wide-eyed fanatics, willing to throw anyone into the flames in pursuit of their desire to create widespread social and political mayhem.

In truth, they are The Joker behind the screen, where all their playing cards are tipped with razors, their jack-in-the-boxes contain nasty surprises, and their acid-spraying lapel flowers are filled with soup -- for now.

And Starmer is running from them, because he is scared.

FigRollsAlly · 14/04/2023 15:47

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2023 15:37

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fxd37bxwwh/Internal_Prisons_230130.pdf

Very recent polling on transgender prisoners:

A majority of people think that male transgender criminals (non-sex crime) who don't have a penis belong in a women's prison.

Just under a quarter of those polled think that they still belong in a women's prison even if they have a penis. And 34% of previous Labour voters.

That seems to be quite a lot of people thinking they either are women, or should be treated as women.

Show quote history

That’s interesting, do you know if there was any explanation for respondents about what was meant by a “transgender woman” or “full reassignment surgery”? I think quite a few people are still pretty confused about what these terms mean and some think a transgender woman means someone born female who has transitioned.

ScrollingLeaves · 14/04/2023 15:53

lemmein · Today 14:09

Sharkyto · Today 09:48

While all the poor women get closer to death and poverty under Tory rule, they can rejoice that atleast they know she doesn’t have a penis, that makes it all ok! 🤔

Agreed. It's a privilege to be able to base your vote on this matter alone.

I’d say it was a privileged position:

to be so sure that you yourself are unlikely to go to a women’s prison that you think it is fine to tell the poorest women in society, who are more likely to go there, that it is fine for them to forgo dignity and consideration and be housed alongside criminal males.

to tell female victims if rape or domestic violence, in many cases poor women, that they can be put with the sex that caused them harm

to tell disabled women and girls it is fine for them to have intimate care from male staff

to tell abused children and children in care, many from poor families, that their lives have been perfect and the only thing wrong with them is that they are trans

to use such nonsensical language that the poor and illiterate may miss out on vital healthcare; or representation in the ONS

to tell school girls they have to share lavatories with giggling and prying boys

to brainwash poor children - if it gets even worse at schools, richer parents will just arrange tutors or homeschool groups, or find private schools that eschew the gibberish.

to disregard the views of the country as they are doing in Scotland

Transactivist queer theory is a privileged and niche stance.

BreadInCaptivity · 14/04/2023 15:59

Sharkyto · 14/04/2023 15:35

Of course it’s a privilege to vote on a single issue. Lots of women believe (know) women don’t have penis’ but they’re more concerned with ensuring women can house and feed their kids, heat their homes, get access to health care etc. Correctly identifying the class of people in which your policies disproportionately disadvantage, doesn’t mean you’re automatically the best party for them, far from it.

As the said above, this transcends the issue of self id.

This isn't my "luxury".

The luxury belongs to Labour in wanting to have their cake and eat it by expecting women to vote for them whilst lying about what a woman is.

Labour just don't learn from their mistakes.

As seen of this thread, nobody is winning hearts and minds by trying to deflect the blame on to women voters or by denigrating anyone who votes Tory.

Labour need to have policies that are attractive to the broader electorate and stop pandering to niche interests.

dimorphism · 14/04/2023 16:11

Sharkyto · 14/04/2023 15:35

Of course it’s a privilege to vote on a single issue. Lots of women believe (know) women don’t have penis’ but they’re more concerned with ensuring women can house and feed their kids, heat their homes, get access to health care etc. Correctly identifying the class of people in which your policies disproportionately disadvantage, doesn’t mean you’re automatically the best party for them, far from it.

I'd genuinely like to know why you think Labour would deliver better on these metrics than the Tories, in an evidenced way other than the typical 'Labour are for the working class' trope, because from what I've seen they'll be spending money on lots of mens issues with very few concrete proposals for improving the lot of the poorest in society.

And correct sexing is critical in healthcare. The Labour party could quite easily throw millions at the NHS and it all be spent on rainbow badges and changing all the paperwork from 'women' to 'cervix havers' plus re-education training camps to change everyone's use of pronouns (etc). This is not going to make frontline services any better and in some cases could cause significant risks to health. For example, non-English speakers do not understand woke language and may well not seek medical assistance in time if the word 'woman' (or indeed 'man' though that seems a bit more teflon) is replaced.

dimorphism · 14/04/2023 16:15

Yes, allowing men who ID as women to provide intimate care for disabled women is essentially an abusers charter - we've seen the shocking abuse scandals already, why on earth make it easier - and this is very opposite of helping the most vulnerable in society.

From my analysis, the damage to the most vulnerable women and children will be greater under Labour and I'm not even convinced their economic lot will be better.

NotHavingIt · 14/04/2023 16:18

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2023 15:23

I don't think anyone on this thread has explained yet what they think is objectionable about Sunak's statement

There are quite a lot of people out there who think trans women are women. Or if not exactly women, then should be treated as women.

People who have that opinion would be quite reasonable in thinking that Rishi is incorrect to say that women don't have penises. Because they may know people who have penises that they consider to be women.

You can be of the opinion that they are wrong to believe that, but apparently telling people that they are wrong is 'what the left do' and 'is a bad tactic'.

I really think the number of people who genuinely think that TW are women is incredibly small.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 14/04/2023 16:18

Datun · 14/04/2023 15:41

I'm looking at bloody Bud Lite who have lost 5 billion now, is it? And still won't apologise to women for their disgustingly misogynistic advertising, because they are afraid of the trans lobby.

If our politicians are so shit scared of transactivists, it tells me a lot. It's like the gun lobby, or the tobacco lobby.

Who would be frightened of people, unless it is tied it to money and power? What power do transactivists have over Kier Starmer?

Every time a politician came on here to do a web chat, I asked them what they were scared of. Until I got suspended even for asking. And we know why that was. Because mumsnet would lose money on the back of withdrawn advertising.

So what is Kier Starmer so afraid of and why?

Show quote history

I agree with what you say Datun, but I feel somewhat unsettled too.

If following the money is key, and I am willing to accept this premise, why are the Conservative Party of the UK not getting the same financial incentives as the parties of the left? What would happen if they suddenly did?

It seems clear that in the US pharmaceutical and medical companies are pushing the trans agenda. Funding of various organisations is a large part of this.

We know that the Lib Dems in the UK received some funding from a company which makes puberty blockers.

I wonder why these companies aren’t also bribing Conservatives and the Republicans in the US. I wonder what would happen if they did. Perhaps they actually can’t afford to back all the horses in this race or perhaps there is something else going on. I’m a little on edge about what that might be.

Money makes the world go round as the song says.

Roadtrips · 14/04/2023 16:21

dimorphism · 14/04/2023 16:15

Yes, allowing men who ID as women to provide intimate care for disabled women is essentially an abusers charter - we've seen the shocking abuse scandals already, why on earth make it easier - and this is very opposite of helping the most vulnerable in society.

From my analysis, the damage to the most vulnerable women and children will be greater under Labour and I'm not even convinced their economic lot will be better.

I see on Twitter that trans activists are targeting a disabled woman. I also saw Rosie Duffield is on the case Tweeting her support.

The government has to get this sorted, there are vulnerable people being tortured day in day out in many ways from this ideology.

NotHavingIt · 14/04/2023 16:23

noblegiraffe · 14/04/2023 15:37

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fxd37bxwwh/Internal_Prisons_230130.pdf

Very recent polling on transgender prisoners:

A majority of people think that male transgender criminals (non-sex crime) who don't have a penis belong in a women's prison.

Just under a quarter of those polled think that they still belong in a women's prison even if they have a penis. And 34% of previous Labour voters.

That seems to be quite a lot of people thinking they either are women, or should be treated as women.

Show quote history

If that is the case it is because they have yet to think it through or be made aware of the wider implications. Once people have a fuller picture and are clearer on details they don't think that way at all.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/04/2023 16:26

And Labour's claims that they will improve things like the NHS sound lovely but the question really is, how? With what money? For a while there many on the left were claiming it was a good plan just to print more, but I think we can all see now that is as much a figment as trickle down economics.

Didn't Gordon Brown infamously leave a letter at the end of the last Labour Government stating that 'there is no money left?'. How can anyone be so sure that we will have more wealth and more funding in the public sector with a Labour Government?

I have always voted Labour but this self ID issue has made me rethink.

People on threads like this calling women stupid for not voting Labour in spite of the fact that it will harm us will do nothing to convince me otherwise.

I hate this politics of name calling and the sense of superiority of the left. Women are bigots for believing in biological sex? I don't think so.

Roadtrips · 14/04/2023 16:26

The cruelty of referring physically ill women in need of NHS services to MH for re education is beyond a low move.

At last Caroline Farrow, Glinner, Posie, Linda Bellos and Venice were given a solicitor and the chance of a court case. Threats of incaseration without trial by mental health activists abusing the system to silence vulnerable non believers is beyond the pale.

Datun · 14/04/2023 16:31

PomegranateOfPersephone · 14/04/2023 16:18

I agree with what you say Datun, but I feel somewhat unsettled too.

If following the money is key, and I am willing to accept this premise, why are the Conservative Party of the UK not getting the same financial incentives as the parties of the left? What would happen if they suddenly did?

It seems clear that in the US pharmaceutical and medical companies are pushing the trans agenda. Funding of various organisations is a large part of this.

We know that the Lib Dems in the UK received some funding from a company which makes puberty blockers.

I wonder why these companies aren’t also bribing Conservatives and the Republicans in the US. I wonder what would happen if they did. Perhaps they actually can’t afford to back all the horses in this race or perhaps there is something else going on. I’m a little on edge about what that might be.

Money makes the world go round as the song says.

Show quote history

Yes, I agree that it's transparently money in the US. Not to mention the Soros funded index that they are all signing up to.

I haven't actually seen any evidence of bribery here yet. So the question still stands. What is Keir Starmer frightened of?

it he's not being bribed, what's the issue? There has to be something, right?

The difference, could also be our press. They are reporting on it. So voting will be affected as a result of raising awareness.

It's no good being given a shit ton of money, if you don't get to have the power that goes with it. It's no good bribing a political party if the policy doesn't get them elected because people think it's batshit. .

maybe the labour party does have a TRA donor. But whatever it is, they're frightened of something.

They clearly don't realise, unlike a whole bunch of women, dealing with terrible twos, stroppy teens, and useless husbands, that no is, in fact, a complete sentence.

Keir - Just Say No.

Mummyoflittledragon · 14/04/2023 16:33

Bosky · 14/04/2023 14:30

100% agree. We don't need to imagine where the road leads, we can look at Canada, Australia, NZ, California - and the prospect is horrific. It is not just Gender Identity Ideology, it is the authoritarianism required and eagerly adopted in order to impose it on the population.

The complicity of mainstream media in Canada has been a huge problem but it has been brought very sharply into focus in Australia and NZ with KJK's tour. What should we expect from regimes that legalise the commodification of women's bodies, legalised pay-to-rape laws and the buying and selling of newborn babies? State-approved violent suppression of women advocating for women's rights and the protection of children, the demonisation of dissidents.

I want the next Government to do more than tinker with economic policy. What is the price of personal liberty and free speech? Already we have people being sacked and threatened and harassed by the police for dissenting from an ideology that has its tentacles deeply entwined in all the institutions of state and public bodies. It is no good relying on "law fare" in the long term as the justice system is also being subverted.

This all started under a Labour Government. The only rational voices in Parliament during the GRA2004 debates were those of Tories, who I loathed and hated at the time so I would not have listened to them even if I had been aware of the legislation being proposed. Labour lied, ridiculed and smeared those who raised dissenting voices back then just as they do now.

I don't think we should underestimate the power and influence of Whitehall, the Civil Service, "arms length" bodies and QUANGOs. The problem with Labour is that they are of the same mind.

If you have not already done so, complete the College of Police online consultation questionnaire on "Recording non-crime hate incidents" by 11:59pm on Sunday 16 April.

https://www.college.police.uk/article/recording-non-crime-hate-incidents-have-your-say

Look at this example of a "trivial complaint" in the proposed "Authorised Professional Practice (APP)" for the Police and see the propaganda machine still at play, demonising women and seeking to undermine women's rights:

Example
The local authority and the police respond to community concerns reported to them about anti-transgender posters that were posted at the scene of an LGBT+ Pride event. The local authority removed the posters and the police recorded the complaint as a non-crime incident, adding a hate and prejudice qualifier on the grounds of hostility towards transgender identity. This was because the posters were assessed as containing threatening material. A person sees an online article about this and reports a hate crime on the grounds of religious hostility, saying that by removing the posters, the local authority have offended their philosophical faith around biological gender. The police review the complaint and decide that the actions of the local authority do not amount to a crime, and that it is irrational to record a non-crime hate incident. The complainant is asking the police to record legal activity by the local authority. Furthermore, this activity is not motivated by hostility. To record the complaint as a non-crime hate incident would not be rational

The police notify the complainant about their decision not to record a non-crime hate incident. In addition, they review the record and delete any personal data of the subject.

Page 11 - 12

The "subject" in this example is the Local Authority. There is no mention of deleting the personal data of the complainant, the person who has a "philosophical faith around biological gender", who is portrayed as approving of "anti-transgender posters . . . assessed as containing threatening material".

https://assets.college.police.uk/s3fs-public/2023-03/Recording-and-retention-of-non-crime-hate-incidents-APP-consultation.pdf

That is the sort of propaganda that underpins the now routine accusation by anti-woman activists that advocates for women's rights are "Nazis". Plus a bit of sleight of hand about the retention of personal data on such a complainant.

There is probably less emotive shorthand but this along with so many other examples (eg. the College of Justice refusing to disclose who advised and trained it on production of the very unequal "Equal Treatment Bench Book") smacks of the 'Deep State", with so many institutions of State being captured and working against women.

A Labour Government would have every single cabinet member on board with this so, whatever pie in the sky they might be promising, I am not going to vote for them. I have attended enough Labour Party conferences and canvassed on doorsteps often enough for Labour to know that most economic manifesto promises can be taken with a pinch of salt.

At the moment the only electable party that is trying to root out this monster is the Tories - although I would vote for POW, the SDP or the Communists if a candidate was standing. It would not unsettle the Tory vote as I am in one of the safest Labour seats in the land with a mega-TRA MP.

Show quote history

Hi thanks for posting this. I’ve got a terrible migraine on top of chronic fatigue brain fog and I see time is running out. I cannot decipher anything right now on the document.

Would you please be willing to give me the indication of what I’m supposed to be saying on the feedback and I’ll complete.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 14/04/2023 16:33

No @lifeturnsonadime that was Liam Byrne. Gordon brown for all his faults would never be so flippant.

echo what others say, I’ve voted Labour all my life but I won’t vote for people who are either so stupid they think men can literally become women or don’t believe that but are willing to lie and say it because they’re afraid of a minority of very shouty & aggressive activists. Both of the former also demonstrate that as usual women are not seen as full humans in our own right but support humans who should put our own needs last until alllllllll other problems are solved. No.

the Tories are utter bastards who have destroyed everything so I won’t vote for them either.

luckily we are likely to have an independent candidate - but if they start TWAW too thrn I’m spoiling my ballot.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/04/2023 16:40

Theeyeballintheskye

You are quite right, apologies! It was Gordon Brown's government though which is why I'd misremembered.

Either way I'm not convinced that Labour will be able to fix the economic woes of the nation which appears to be a reason why we are considered stupid not to vote for them.

EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 16:42

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted as the poster is not a genuine poster.

EndIessTea · 14/04/2023 16:42

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted as the poster is not a genuine poster.