Good things about being a feminist

[sethstarkaddersmum]

I'll start.

1. Less painful feet

"Is it as simple as that though?"

Yes. for proof of how cultural norms affect womens efforts to look a certain, specific way, you don't have to look very far. Compare how younger women dress versus older women, compare the women in Burkhas to the woman in a dress and we haven't even left the UK here. All these different norms tell women how to dress/look/behave/ad infinitum.

I don't think Brownmiller is saying that the majority should be incriminated and judged on the actions of a minority, TSH - have you read the book,or are you going on the "all men,all women" quote?
(I'm asking because what you are saying is exactly what I thought until I read the book.But if you've read it,fair enough,obviously we've read it differently!)

There is a big difference actually TSH. What Brownmiller seems to be arguing (and yes I need to go and read the book in full) is that culturally men dominate over women, and one of the tools used to do this is rape (in some cases) and the fear of rape. All women are afraid of rape. All men know this. As I said above I don't think all men consciously think "oh goody, rape, that's something that scares women and keeps them down". But things like the low conviction rate (or rather, the low taken-seriously-by-the-police-and-CPS rate) indicate that male-dominated public bodies are allowing rape to continue. Why, is the question?

And before you say they can't stop it, you could say the same about anything. Drug-dealing perhaps. But it doesn't stop special bodies being set up to deal with that, or long sentences handed down to deter people. With things as they are at the moment, it's almost like a greenlight to men who want to dominate women and be violent towards them.

Anyway, to return to your analogies. They don't work because you are comparing Brownmiller's quote about cultural roles of men and women, to statements about the "innate" (genetic presumably) abilities of particular groups. Saying "women have lower paying jobs" is not comparable to saying "women are intellectually inferior" - can you see why?

"I think it is sad if feminism encourages women not to make the best of their female features eg physical ones, by not shaving, not wearing heels, makeup etc (these things seem to be suggested as characteristics of feminists on this thread). I find the differences that make females female, beautiful, and think those differences should be celebrated."

Welcome to the folder OrdinarySAHM

I think grooming or dressing up or applying glittery make up to look beautiful for YOURSELF is wonderful. Beautification for YOU - for fun, self expression, self adornment and playfulness are positive and as a feminist I don't see a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is this iron rule about how women MUST look - so even if you'd rather finish your book, you force yourself to go and shave your legs because you "cant" leave the house hairy. Or even if you're tired and hate the thought of getting up 30 mins early to blowdry your hair, you "must" because you can't go to work without looking polished. It's when the grooming rituals - with all their accompanying expense and vast amounts of time they gobble up - are performed as a chore (one of the many chores a woman must do in her day), to obey some standard of beauty that "society" deems okay that they become just another stick to beat women with!

When I was a younger (and sillier), I would feel flat, unconfident and somehow "lacking" if I went to work without a fashionable outfit, styled hair and make up on - even if I was clean, showered, had clean teeth and hair and clean ironed clothes on. Why is it ok for me n to go out into the world clean but unadorned, but I felt so flat and unworthy without full slap? I often do wear make up now (and I often don't) but now I wear it for me and if anyone wants to judge me for not wearing it, screw 'em.

Good things about being a feminist

Loving my body. Feminism gave my body back to me. I am a size 14 with an hourglass figure and I am happy running around a beach in a bikini or walking round the house naked. I am alarmed at the self loathing with which women among my friends and family regard their bodies. Beautiful bodies, most of them, and even if some are different to the sanctioned "beauty type" their bodies are capable and strong - can dance, bear babies, orgasm repeatedly, run marathons... but instead of celebrating these bodies, every wobble or wrinkle is greeted like cancer.

My sister cannot get into a swimming pool without a sarong covering up her "hideous" thighs. She edges towards the pool sitting down, flings the sarong away as she dives under water lest god forbid anyone see her 22 year old thighs. Not for her the freedom of running across the lawn in the sunshine and jumping into the cold water. Someone might see her and find her lacking. Thank you for feminism for letting me love my body.

I feel like that now, SkaterGrrrl. I am not at all a fashionable or particularly well-groomed person, but I still feel crap if I go out and don't look "nice" where nice = make-up+hair neat (has to be straightened to look sufficiently "neat")+flattering clothes.

I get really wound up because I am caught in a trap WRT clothing. Because I have largeish breasts, if I wear clothes that cover them up totally with a high neckline I tend to be uncomfortable or look frumpy, even fat, because tight clothes strangle me and loose clothes go out over the boobs and hang down from there. OTOH if I wear tops/shirts with a normal neckline (under collar bone but not actually "low" on most women), cleavage is on show. I can't help this, but I feel and my ever helpful mother has said that it makes me look "unprofessional FGS. I hate the fact that if I hide my breasts totally, cleavage and shape I mean (which for me would involve some kind of oversized shirt) you are failing to live up to the f-ing beauty standard and feel crap. But if I let the cleavage or shape show, I am somehow unfit to be seen by children or animals or entrusted with a responsible job. Sadly feminism hasn't helped me with this much yet, except that I know that being ashamed of my breasts is not a good thing to be feeling.

E&M: I feel your pain. I'm, ahem, gifted, and have struggled between 'flaunt it yay!' and "actually my eyes are up here" feelings for ages. Specially when lots of pretty things that I like have necklines that make them impossible for me to use (no cleavage in my job, thanks). I've got a lot of cheapo white tank tops (primarkish) that I wear under things now, which has made some things more possible. But it's annoying to have to have another layer when it's hot, just cos of our strange social obsession with breasts.

TSH, i feel i must bring to your attention that your assertation that it is only a tiny minority of men that rape is false.

statistically, this is simply not true in many places. (i dont know about the UK)

in south africa for example, the majority of men that dont rape sits at roughly 65% of the population. not 80, 90 or even 99% numbers which i would call the VAST majority.

i am sure you will agree that if 45% of a male population rape with impunity, then you would be much less comfortable asserting that as long as only a 'minority' of men rape, its unfair to agree or identify with brownlees argument.

blackcurrants, I just find it weird that if cleavage is such an inappropriate part of the body to be seen at work, why do almost all clothes available (except those things obviously designed for the retired golfer) seem to put it on show? You don't get shirts for men designed to show off their belly buttons or whatever, so either cleavage (some, not talking Saturday night down the local dive) is acceptable or not. It's just flesh FGS.

My first post on here...Hello!

For me, the ver best thing about feminism is this...

My Mum is a very 'well-preserved' non-wrinkly 55 year old lady. She takes HUGE delight that people often think she is ten years younger than she is and will talk about it for days. The reason behind this, she confided to me when I was 13 as advice...'don't pull faces, don't smile too much, keep your face straight when you get water in your eyes while washing your hair, keep your face still'...

Freedom from that kind of crap. I think of it when I'm gurning at the baby to make her laugh, how sad it is that my Mum won't do this for fear that it might make her less attractive to men.

Welcome Mrs Buggywinkle!

Gosh that's sad, imagine not laughing or frowning when you feel like it!

I would think that not letting yourself smile would put more of a downer on your life than a few wrinkles would.

there I feel better already.

Yeah I think knowing that you're alright without any special try-hard cosmetic practices is great. Feminism definitely helps with that. It's about sort of accepting that you're a human first and foremost, not a decoration.

My first post too...

There are many many great things about being a feminist, and am happy to expand - but, is it ok to ask here about things people have found hardest about being a feminist?

I had my first baby four and a half months ago, and a lot of things about my new life are making me think very hard about what I think sexual equality looks like, and how we can get it (for example - I choose to exclusively breastfeed which makes it much harder to share the parenting with my partner. I also choose to use cloth nappies but hear that certain sections of the feminist movement - I don't know who - are now suggesting that a lot of eco-parenting is a move which will find mothers pushed back into the home (don't really agree with that one but thought I would mentino it).
Is this the wrong thread for this question?

PS - very glad to have found the feminist section.

I think hard things about being a feminist would make quite a long list notenoughsocks. Why don't you start a new thread

Hi btw notenough & mrsbuggywinkle! Sorry I didn't spot that it was your first post.

I don't have DC yet so not up on the current eco-parenting thing. One thing I have noticed though is that where "eco" lifestyles involve a lot more work/time, it is often the woman whose time is considered available to take up the extra burden.

I'm thinking of this couple who have gone over to eating food from within 5 miles of their house. It sounds like she's the one who is having to make the changes to her life: "The financial savings are huge, although the time spent on food preparation has doubled. 'At first I found it very difficult. I had a five-month-old baby, was breastfeeding and had no dishwasher, but then I made the adjustment.'"

I think that's an unfair generalisation, Elephants - I know an awful lot of hard core eco types (living in huts/benders, no power etc) and I would say that typically they have much less of a gender division of labour than in 'mainstream' society. Largely I suspect because of not being tied into the whole mortgage/job/consumption cycle, so much easier to just split things equally.

Great things about being a feminist?

Being right.

That's enough for me

You are right, elephants, eco life styles almost invariably involve more work. Before DS came along, me and DP used to share the domestic chores. But, having a baby has really shown up the gender differences/expectations and how intertwined everything really is.

My choice to breasfeed (and I have no regrets) means that I am now at home till end of mat leave and DP is out all day (he had to go back after months paternity). I do as much as I can around the home so we get some time out in the evening. Have discussed all this v.thourougly with DP if you are wondering.

But all the time I am busy doing all of these things - loving being with my son mixed up with bordom, sense of drudgedom and wishing for childcare, etc. etc. my feminist self is wondering what can be done.

Anyhow, the subject is really too big for here. Thanks for suggestion though Elephants. I would be v.interested to see what replies came up - when I next have half a day spare and am feeling brave, I will start a thread on it.

Definitely worth a thread, notenough - I'd argue the problem is mainstream capitalist/industrial society, rather than the eco-lifestyle (ie the divorce between life/work)

Advantages of feminism - its part of who I am, and about being a person, rather than some second class being.

Having said that, many of the threads on here have made me wonder (for the first time in my life, and not in a good way) whether I am a feminist in other peoples' sense.

...to name but two, threelittlepebbles.

Totally agree, Takver. I wasn't saying it happens in all cases at all.

To put it another way, if you have either a very "traditional" setup with a SAHM and a man who goes out to work, or an undercurrent of sexism in the family, moving to a more eco-friendly lifestyle could definitely become chiefly the woman's burden.

This is mainly I suppose because many of these lifestyle changes are based around food and cleaning. More home cooking, fewer chemical products (which usually make cleaning faster, toxicity aside ), washing nappies rather than chucking them. It's the domestic sphere stuff I guess.