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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Recommend me a book!

1001 replies

RibenaBerry · 24/06/2010 13:11

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

OP posts:
Sakura · 15/07/2010 13:51

"its not about going back-its about becoming the person you really are"

Yes, transexuals exist. But they are not female.

Blackduck · 15/07/2010 13:51

Its not about being proud of ignorance (and I know I am ignorant about a lot of things, and at least I will admit it unlike some....) It's about not BEING INTERESTED - I am interested in the position of women etc. Sakura says it well in my view. I am tired of you handing down reading lists like we are a bunch of undergrads....Naughty us for not clicking on every link - you just don't get how patronising you are and why should you dictate our focus?

So what was your point re listing all the times that link had been put up?

Sakura · 15/07/2010 13:56

earwicga is trying to derail.
if trans is wrapped up with earwicga's work somehow, then she is worried that this thread will reveal the biases.

If Sakura and Dittany didn't have a case, earwicga would have no reason to be here.

LePapa · 15/07/2010 15:35

You guys are so caught up... you seem to wish to ignore FTM transgendered individuals, as banging on about MTF's not being 'women' is a lot easier for you to cry: 'misogynist conspiracy!'. FTM's simply don't exist to you... they too face exactly the sort of treatment you dish out in the name of traditional (or 20th Century) feminism, only from your opposites in the testosterone pumped, Top Gear loving mass of 'men'. To be honest I look at patriarchy and I look at the activists here and I can see little difference between them and you... all in it for your 'side' against 'the others'... with heavy layers of stereotyping of everyone else in order to confirm your world views.

BTW... saw this and thought of you guys here...

The Vatican today made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes under church law, putting it in the same category as clerical sex abuse of minors, heresy and schism.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-attempted-ordination-women-grave-crim e

LePapa · 15/07/2010 15:55

Sakura... I'm becoming worried... you've started to refer to yourself in the 3rd person...eg.

"If Sakura and Dittany didn't have a case, earwicga would have no reason to be here."

I decided to check this out on your behalf and found these useful diagnosis... unfortunately the 1st is written by a man if my man-dar is registering correctly...

"Children who fail to grow out of the "monarchic" phase of intellectual development and into the "dualistic" phase may become narcissistic throughout their lives. They may effectively intellectualize and rationalize their behavior, but their inability to view situations from perspectives other than their own causes them to also become abusive or coldly detached when challenged, and to react with rage and indignance when denied or thwarted in some way.
Paradoxically, the tendency of narcissists to refer to themselves in the third person stems from precisely this inability. When asked to explain their ill-conceived actions or describe their negative emotions, narcissists usually refuse to take responsibility for them. Instead, they blame others, often by composing narratives featuring a suspiciously-autobiographical "fictitious" character who understands everything, is a world-renowned expert in whatever subject is germane to the issue at hand, and whose authority is therefore unquestioned. This is also why narcissists may be inextricably drawn to the act of making up quotes."

Also found this... thankfully the first is written by a woman, but her use of the term 'he' prejudices her position as a woman I feel...

"Major Human Flaw: Some people refer to themselves in the third person.

Response No. 1, by Elsa Ronningstam, associate clinical professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School and author of Identifying and Understanding the Narcissistic Personality: Referring to yourself in the third person creates distance between "I" and "he." So if you have an exaggerated view of how great you are, you could be using this distance to make yourself even bigger. Or, if you've achieved major success suddenly, using the third person could be a way to adjust to the bigger role that's been assigned to you. It's a way to enlarge yourself to fit that role.

Response No. 2, by Mike Birbiglia, stand-up comedian who currently stars in the off-Broadway show Sleepwalk with Me: People love to rip those who refer to themselves in the third person, but they don't understand the power that comes with it. The third person is how you indicate that the topic is not open for debate. You are speaking about facts that just so happen to include you. Like when Alonzo Mourning says, "Alonzo Mourning has to make the best business decisions for Alonzo Mourning," everyone steps back a little, and somebody hands him $15 million a year for seven years. But that same sentence in the first person would have sounded like, "I just enjoy playing basketball with my friends and all the free Gatorade." See the difference? Maybe this is a case of what the f%$# is right with these people....

sally66 · 15/07/2010 16:10

Sakura
sally smile Your child sounds very happy. The world needs more of your children. But feminists are trying to prove your case to the world. We say that males don't have to behave a certain way.

Thank you

She is a lot happier now that she is receiving the help that she needed. She has now lived as full time female for really 18 months. She has been stopped in Oxford Street by modeling agencies. The little cow is in size 6 and 5ft7". She never felt male if that makes any sense? Never had any joint interests with the boys. She has always felt better in female company and has always felt that she had more in common with the girls. It's hard to explain. I'm not sure if this will make sense to you or not?

earwicga · 15/07/2010 16:10

LePapa - I can hardly see the screen for laughing ;)

Blackduck · 15/07/2010 16:18
Hmm
lemonmuffin · 15/07/2010 16:19

By LePapa, Thurs 15th July 15.35.

"To be honest I look at patriarchy and I look at the activists here and I can see little difference between them and you... all in it for your 'side' against 'the others'... with heavy layers of stereotyping of everyone else in order to confirm your world views"

Absolutely spot on LePapa.

chibi · 15/07/2010 16:45

I wasn't saying that I see a difference between cis and trans children

I was saying that my brother exhibits the same behaviours etc that led another child to be identified as trans, but he is not himself trans

child x-does a, b, c thus is trans
my brother -does a, b, c but is not trans

it was the association with 'behaving in a feminine way" with trans that I was querying

I don't think this link is as cut and dried as some would insist

dittany · 15/07/2010 17:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LePapa · 15/07/2010 17:49

'utter nonsense'... well put, coherent argument once again aimed at me...

dittany · 15/07/2010 17:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sparky159 · 15/07/2010 17:55

*dittony"-
[feminists want to smash gender and sex steriotypes]
if you managed to do this-who would you hate then?

dittany · 15/07/2010 18:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeatitude · 15/07/2010 18:18

'wah wah wah, I'm a victim and hate all men'

Have I missed something? I don't remember reading anything like that, that sounds like an anti-feminist's explanation of feminism.

sally66 · 15/07/2010 18:44

can you explain this statement please

Blackduck · 15/07/2010 18:47

sparky - why have you suddenly turned all agressive? and feminism isn't about hate so that is just such a facile statement....
Earwigca bangs on about stereotypes and comes out with the 'I hate all men' line - a stereotype if ever I heard one.....and not true of so many feminists. But hey, why although the truth to ruin a good line.

sally66 · 15/07/2010 18:51

sorry i meant this statement

Feminists are going to have a much better case if we draw a clear line on sex, if we teach that males cannot, and should not, be considered females by law; that radical feminists draw the line right there."

can you elaborate on this please

sparky159 · 15/07/2010 18:59

Blackdog-
i havent suddenly turned all aggressive!
i asked this question because i feel dittony
comes across as hating men!
i then had this thought that if the gender and sex steriotypes was broken-who would people hate then!
im not educated Blackdog-but i often have lots of thoughts!
often when i look at posts-this leads me to having a lot of thoughts and questions!

dittany · 15/07/2010 19:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LePapa · 15/07/2010 19:21

dittany... "Feminists want to smash gender and sex streotypes, trans want to reinforce them and pretend that they are actually real."

This set of people want to do this while that set of people want to do that... If that's not stereotyping then not sure what is. Trans people don't want to reinforce them (sexual stereotypes)... they want to just be... be themselves. Like all of us, including oppressed women and human beings all over the world.

I just read the arguments and the hardcore feminist viewpoint in terms of definitions are overtly insular and aimed at self preservation... and I can understand that,both in terms of the history and contemporary cultures standpoint on womanhood. But arguments I've read about white people wanting to be black and how black people should reject that is a misnomer. If you wish to use that argument i would say that trans people are bi-racial in relation to this argument, and as such will never be accepted by the extremists in both black and white culture, which is vile we'd all agree... the same as trans never being accepted by extreme masculine and feminist standpoints... ... and as such, trans people, like all people, should be afforded the right to identify with whichever culture they are comfortable with... male or female...

Arguments making mentally ill rapists and stranglers the pin-up poster for what trans women are capable of and thus an anti trans stance is disappointing... as disappointing as making margaret thatcher the reason why women shouldn't run a country... Quite ridiculous!

earwicga · 15/07/2010 20:00

'I just don't think it's possible to turn men into women.'

Absolutely, I doubt you will find anybody who disagrees with this.

earwicga · 15/07/2010 20:02

'it was the association with 'behaving in a feminine way" with trans that I was querying

I don't think this link is as cut and dried as some would insist'

Indeed! I agree.

earwicga · 15/07/2010 20:06

LePapa - equating trans women with rapists is a common transphobic strawman.

The EHCR says a woman must go to a woman's prison. Take it up with the ECHR dittany. Although I realise that human rights aren't within your remit or vision so doubt you would understand what the ECHR is about.

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