Recommend me a book!

[RibenaBerry]

Right, reading these boards recently has given me a bit of a kick up the arse on my feminist principles. I've done a bit of 'light' reading in the area (think The Beauty Myth as a teenager) but think I need something a bit more serious without being so weighty I never pick it up. I'd rather have something published in, say, the last 15 years than any of the 'classics'.

Any ideas?

x=posts....

One thing i will admit to the other night is totally loosing my temper. I am sorry that i did. It was because of the implication that i was allowing the medics to experiment on my child, as that was the way it came across.

I have read the site, i can see where they are coming from, but i think that they have worded it wrongly.

Please don't worry about asking me questions. I will answer as honestly as i can. But please do not question my judgment with my child. This is a long and hard path that we travel down and it is very bumpy.

I think that they are more likening to a tomboy to be honest

This is the better one to read for those interested if this helps

www.gires.org.uk/dysphoria.php

RibenaBerry I am v.surprised at how your thread has turned out. .

I think that the massive # of posts on here has made the rest of the topic a bit quiet.

I haven't posted on here as I too think that this is "a bit niche" for me. I just wouldn't know where to start.

I am glad that some of our stalwart posters are putting forward the Feminist arguments etc.

I have replied to your Q about the books here.

That's interesting Sally, there's some actual scientific papers referenced on that website.
Don't feel qualified to assess how good the science is, but I was getting a little that no one had presented any evidence.

The link to GIRES was first posted on this thread on the 4th July, then mentioned again on 7th July, and twice on the 9th. I'm glad at least one person on this thread has clicked into it.

This is via GIRES:

Transsexual gene link identified
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7689007.stm

2 women a week are murdered in the UK and noone cares because they're women.
If a trans woman was murdered this coming weekend, I bet my two arms that trans women all over the UK would miraculously 'forget' that they're just normal women, like the other two women that would've been murdered in that same week.
I bet that they'll suddenly 'remember' their special privileges as XY people.
One of the things that angered me on that Fword website in the pro-trans argument because at the bottom there was some sort of memorial for 3 trans women who had been murdered in the past X number of years.
I was like this
Clearly some people, including feminists, alreadly believe that the life of a trans woman is worth more than a mere woman.

Sally, if you read my arguments you will see that radical feminists are in favour of breaking down the gender constructs that bind women. They are in favour of masculine women and feminine men. If we change the social constructs that restrict boys and girls into certain groups of behaviour then gender dysphoria would disappear because there would be no need to 'align' with one gender or another. IN a feminist world a boy who wanted to wear a dress, would be welcome to, without ridicule.
Cais babies are variations on the male, as far as I know, so I don't know if you've noticed anything in your child's behaviour that would suggest a definite boy. Society today is penis obsessed. That's why it's unacceptable for men to believe that Cais babies are male. If radical feminists had their way, intercourse would not be regarded as the main form of sexual relations between heterosexuals. 'Sticking it in' is not the ultimate representation of sex in a feminist world.

Trans women, on the other hand, are in favour of feminine men being recognized as women. this is the opposite of what feminists are trying to do.

And then there's the issue of women being an oppressed group and the main point of this thread is not to deny the existence of gid but to say that feminists do not accept males as women, because, for various reason, we feel that is not the best thing for women. And radical feminists' job is to look out for women, first and foremost. Because there are such a lot of women and not that many gid people. And women have a much smaller, and quieter platform, on the whole, probably because they're women.

But somebody has to stand up for women and that falls to the radical feminists, who don't believe dehumanizing women even more by saying males can now be females is going to help women.
Although everybody understands how it will help trans women.
This is the feminist section, that is why we're focusing on women. Because somebody has to speak up for them.

Finally, women do not feel comfortable in the gender they've been assigned, just like gid children. They experience oppression as a direct result of the gender role that was assigned to them at birth by society.

I meant it's unnacceptable to men to accept cais babies as male.

earwicga,
the existence of a transsexual gene does not deny the existence of females. There is no correlation. You are merely reiterating the point I made earlier that all foetuses begin as female. That's why men have got nipples.
All females are fully XX.
You are going to have to focus on getting patriarchy to accept you as males. Because that is what you are.
Radical feminists will be happy to help you on that front, me included. If I was not a radical feminist, but your friend, say, I would help you fight against discrimination in the workplace, etc. No human being deserves to be pigeon-holed and bullied or murdered because of the way they were born, the way that women are every day all over the world.
But you do rather sound as though you think transexuals are, sort of, more important, and somehow matter more than women. It is exactly this attitude that is behind women's oppression in the first place.
The fact that throughout this thread you've been literally unable to accept or address specific questions that I've asked you about women's oppression, which tells me that you don't identify with actual women.
If you belonged to a group of people who were being murdered left right and centre, who were being gender reassigned with breast implants and lipo or designer vaginas (female genital mutilation) on a massive scale, like women are all the time, you'd have little time for someone whose main concern was to be called 'she'.
Having said that radical feminists have no problem with males being called she and living as women. NO problem at all with that. As you say this is the real world and we're not at our gender-less utopia yet. But trans women must recognize that they're males and their fight is with men, not women. So I would not support any idea that suggested sex boundaries can be crossed by a particular individual. Because it's not true and it's not in women's interests.
And I think surgery is just there to make money for the capitalists.

earwicga I haven't clicked on the links cos frankly I am not interested....thie thread has been totally hijacked. And once again you come on and talk down to us - what are you trying to prove/say by point out the date (wow what about the time) the link was put up? No compulsion on anyone to read it.

I don't know if you've noticed anything in your child's behaviour that would suggest a definite boy.

In answer to that question, no i have never seen anything male in my child apart from the outer skin. She always played with dolls, prams, used the girls dressing up clothes. She loved dance, gym and hates football and other stereotypical male things etc etc. She was bought boys toys but never wanted to play with them. I thought it was because she had a big sister and that she would grow out of it, She never did.

answer to that question, no i have never seen anything male in my child apart from the outer skin. She always played with dolls, prams, used the girls dressing up clothes. She loved dance, gym and hates football and other stereotypical male things etc etc. She was bought boys toys but never wanted to play with them. I thought it was because she had a big sister and that she would grow out of it, She never did.

this sounds like my brother, who is a man and identifies as such

no one ever suggested/nor did he suggest that he was anything other than a man

how is he different from your child?

sally Your child sounds very happy. The world needs more of your children. But feminists are trying to prove your case to the world. We say that males don't have to behave a certain way. The world would be a better place if more males behaved the way your child did. Your child rather does prove the feminist point. That males, which is what Cais children are, are able to enjoy girly things.

Since this thread started I've been really aware of how I've been treating my daughter ever so slightly differently to my son. I most definitely have been subconsciously imposing higher behavioural standards on her, for example running around and banging things in restaurants: I'd get really stressed when it was my daughter but not so much with my son, because people don't expect much from boys. The oppression of girls begins very early indeed.
Luckily Japan is quite androgynous for children. Very often, until about the age of 9, you can't really tell the difference between the kids in appearance. I've very often mistaken a boy for a girl and vice versa. Boys have long fringes tied up with bows and girls don't wear much pink. In fact I was ashamed to realise today that when I picked my daughter up from her kindergarten she was the only girl wearing a pinkish top . At around the age of 9, the conditioned behavioural traits start to show in full force, as girls become quieter than boys. But I would say Japanese boys are conditioned to be much more feminine than your average British boy.

Yes, I agree Dittany, but you have to teach people in increments. Feminists are going to have a much better case if we draw a clear line on sex, if we teach that males cannot, and should not, be considered females by law; that radical feminists draw the line right there. Males, scientifically, cannot become females. All foetuses begin as female and the 'maleness' is added on later to varying degrees. So they can't go back.

I honestly don't think earwicga knew this, because the pro-trans propaganda is out in full force, whereas radical feminist propaganda doesn't exist. Women don't have the power to make their voice heard and teach people the basic facts about sex and gender. Trans women have already got the power of patriarchy on their side. They've had these laws changed in their favour without even consulting women. Look at the bullying that's gone on on this thread alone. Trans women won't submit to mere women without a fight.
So we have to pick our fights.

Bloody shocking about that male in a women's prison. Bloody shocking.

"Men have taken everything else from us."

Well, yes, that's why I wouldn't let this thread be deleted. And why I wouldn't be shouted down. If we can write about being women, about what it's really like to be women; not what the media tells everyone that women are or supposed to be, then we're safe.
If we lose the right to even write about being female, for fear of upsetting the sensibilities of men who want to be women, then we're done for. The cause is lost.

sakura
yes-all foeteses start off as female!
then a proccess happens with some and they are born male!
but-sometimes-something happens and a transperson is born!
its not about going back-its about becoming the person you really are!
btw-no-im not a transwoman!

sorry-dont know why the "going back*came out darker than the rest-not shouting!

Sakura - I realise you are new to feminism - as you have stated previously on MumsNet - and as such I recognise where you are in your beliefs. But deciding who I am is a bit rich. Perhaps you would like to google my name and read my blog? Pretty much everything you have said on this thread about trans women is made up and false. But then I guess you know that. Feminism has moved on immeasurably from the type of outdated and niave feminism that dittany espouses, as I am sure you will find out in time. Try also looking you 'kyriarchy' and 'intersectionality'.

Blackduck - I'm not sure why anybody would come on here and flaunt their pride in their ignorance. But hey, it takes all sorts to make up a world.

Chibi - I am glad you can see a diference between trans and cis children.

Dittany - LOL as always

And all this 'wah wah wah, I'm a victim and hate all men' has nothing to do with actual feminism and is singularly ineffective to changing anything. In fact it is detrimental to feminism and is the quickest way to get people to distance themselves from feminism. What possible advantage is there in telling every woman she has absolutely no agency in her life?

"Pretty much everything you have said on this thread about trans women is made up and false. "

earwicga, you still don't get it, do you?
This is not about trans women.
I have not decided who you are. I came to the conclusion that you may be a trans woman and I did this by observing your lack of empathy with women, your inability to grasp women's POV. YOu may or may not be a trans woman, who knows, but the truth is you do not identify with women. SOme women don't identify with women either, because it's sometimes too painful for them to realise how dire women's situation actually is. But I expect someone who calls themself a feminist to have a basic grasp of what life is actually like for women. And you appear not to.

This thread is not about trans women; it's about women, females, laying claim to what they believe being a woman is about. XY people cannot lay claim to that, however much they may want to, however much they believe they can.

You are trying to stop us from doing that.

I am not new to feminism, but nice attempt at trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about . I'm new to activism, not feminism. I consider wiping away your lies as activism.

You have provided absolutely zero argument to back up your claims.

"Women are a state of mind" just does not cut it, I'm afraid.

A transsexual gene, again, does not cut it (please see above)

I have no interest in who you are or your blog.

"Dittany - LOL as always "

Err, yeah, it's so LOL to have a male murderer and rapist locked up with women because he believes himself to be a woman.

LOL
LOL
Ah, happy days.

And when I said earlier in the thread I didn't realise I was a feminist, I was making a modest quip.

But nice try.

"By Sakura Wed 30-Jun-10 15:33:48

It's funny, I didn't even know I was a feminist until this section opened up on MN a few months ago

Now I find I'm a raging activist."

"By Sakura Thu 15-Jul-10 13:24:51
I am not new to feminism, but nice attempt at trying to make it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about smile. I'm new to activism, not feminism. I consider wiping away your lies as activism."

Just who is the liar again Sakura? Less raging and more thinking would help you a lot.

"'wah wah wah, I'm a victim and hate all men' has nothing to do with actual feminism "

How would you know. YOu have proved on here that you are not a feminist.

oops, did earwicga X posts
you should spend more time researching and less time hunting down peoples' modest quips.