Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

Fair point, happysmiley.

Where women victims are held to different standards (of behaviour, of evidence, etc) than male victims, then obviously the way to deal with that is not to treat men as badly as women are currently treated... it's to improve the way women are treated.

I find the notion that the way to liberate women is to make sure that men are liberated first profoundly disturbing.

I know this isn't what people here mean but it does sound a bit like the argument that no woman has a right to expect equality and fairness in her life until all male concerns have been addressed.

minipie yes of course i agree with your sentiments.

When I refer to the "what about the men" thing it is in the context of the examples I have given, where women are talking about things that are very important/personal to them and someone comes along and uses "what about the men" to derail the discussion and shut everyone up. i imagine you would agree that in a thread with a bunch of women talking about their personal experiences of rape, it is not helpful for someone to come in and say "yes but sometimes women get drunk and grab mens bums in the pub - its terrible - what about that eh? EH?" and of course everyone gets confused and upset.

Taking about shared parental leave (which as a family we would have taken up in a shot) or changing the cultures in work so that men feel comfortable applying for, and companies are used to granting, things like part time or flexible working for male empoyees. All of that sort of thing is a huge interest to me and I hope will start to break down the barriers of traditional gender roles and alow people in relationships to play to their strengths. In our relationship it would have been great if we could have shared my mat leave say 6 months each and then both gone part time with maybe me doing more hours than DH. Of course we coudn't do that, itds just not possible. But hopefully one day (fairly soon?) it will be.

Yes Beachcomber. And there is also the assumption that because we prioritise women's concerns that we oppose men's concerns. We don't. We just have a different agenda. Sometimes we have more than one agenda.

I took my 11 yo son on an anti-war march. You could call this feminist action: I was exposing my beautiful man in training to counter-cultural influences that value peace rather than violence. It was feminist action, pacifist action and also a bloody good day out for us both. He felt part of thousands of people wanting the same thing and he still calls Bush a war criminal!

You can be a feminist and take feminist action which benefits men but which isn't about men. There is no real dichotomy.

Oh I certainly am not arguing that male concerns should be addressed Beachcomber.

I'm saying they ought to be forced
to given the opportunity to take on equal responsibility for childcare etc.

I'm sure many of them aren't remotely concerned about their current
unwillingness inability to participate equally in childcare.

Agree beachcomber.

Wrote a load of gumph but will leave it as simply "agree".

Plus if men have concerns can't they sort them out? Why should it be up to me to put aside my concerns and sort out theirs for them? They are the ones with the clout after all.

If men want to rail against their stereotypical role of sport fanatic bread winner, then maybe they could have some marches? Stomp en masse through the streets of London waving banners saying "no more rape", "I don't want to watch football" and "Down with being constrained by gendered stereotypes" and other natty slogans.

(sorry couldn't stop myself spouting gumph )

I'm liking that ISNT

'Equal pay for my wife!'
'I CAN wash up!'
'Down with macho expectations!'
'I'm NOT having my period!'

I suppose that's where Fathers4Justice would say they were coming from

Weren't they saying "I want to see more of my child"?

(Shame it was so bound up with the question of maintenance payments).

I hear ya minipie. I think I was more referring to haapysmiley's comment.

I do think we need to sort out parental leave more fairly but I think we need to do a whole lot of work on attitudes and values surrounding paid and unpaid work as well.

I live in France where a family is offered 3 years parental leave on the birth of their second child. Either parent may take the leave but it is almost always the women who takes it.

I generally end up thinking in these types of discussions that capitalism and feminism are not compatible.

Beachcomber what happens in France with the first child [bit dim emoticon]?

Beachcomber, I know what you're saying. I think my very practical view on this it that it's easier to gain ground in the workplace if we give up ground at home. At the moment, women get much more in the rights to maternity leave than men to paternity leave. I know that for us, it will definitely be me that takes time off because I get such generous maternity leave provisions. I think that DH would be really keen to take time off, or at least to share it, but financially it makes no sense at all and legally he doesn't have the same rights as I do.

I find what you're saying about France really interesting. My understanding was that in other countries parental leave is distributed much more evenly once fathers are allowed to take it.

Parental leave is 6 months for the first child.

Of all the couples I know here I don't know a single one where the father as taken the leave and not the mother. And this in a country with high rates of working women.

Mostly it makes financial sense for the women to take the time off because the women is usually the lower earner. I think this is the problem that needs to be addressed, because in France anyway, allocation of parental leave appears to make no real difference to equality in childcare issues.

Beach, can see how a disparity of earnings between each of the parents would lead to the lower earning parent to take time off. Of course, it's only because it makes financial sense. All I can say to that is that I know a fair few couples were the woman is the higher earner, and hopefully over time there will be many more.

Beach - you're right. we need not just the ability to share parental leave but also (a) the woman to be the higher earner as often as the man and (b) employers to take the same attitudes towards men taking paternity leave as women taking maternity leave.

oh yes and (c) for men themselves to be equally keen to take leave as women are.

ah well, one step at a time...

And to have universal access to good quality childcare, which is properly remunerated.

The reason that men are generally the higher earners when children come IME is due to the fact that women tend to get together with men who are older than them - and thus are earning more simply by dint of having been in the work force for longer.

And then when the sums are done the current salaries are taken into account and not the potential earnings of the respective individuals.

For eg I have a friend who was super top a-levels and degree and went to train as an accountant at top london firm ie massive earning potential. She got togetehr with a man in a much less well paid career but due to the age differential he was earning more than her at the point the children came (at the beginning of her career but when his was well established).

Now it may be that if they had taken a "potential earnings" view rather than a "current earnings" one when deciding what to do, that they would have made the same decision.

But I think couples need to understand that often the reason the man is earning more is not because he has a "better" career that thus needs protecting, but simply that he has been doing it longer.

it is an easy trap to fall into and then you suddenly realise a few years down the line that you've bungled it.

People need to (again) break free from gender expectations and learn to do what is right for them, personally and as a family unit, for now and the long term.

And maybe, as xenia says, stop marrying older men

Actually that is a good question.

Why is the usual dynamic in relationships that the man is (i think) 4 years older than the woman?

When people married very young it was more understandable, with this idea that women mature more quickly. But these days, with loads of people not meeting their mate until later, why is this differential still being maintained?

and d)for childcare to be esteemed and valued no matter who does it.

I used to struggle with how being a feminist woman could fit in with being a mother who took three years off work and breastfed for two of those years (one of the main reasons for taking the time).

Then I realised that feminism and capitalism are not compatible for me.

ImSoNotTelling - I could say, because women grow up more quickly than men.

But that would be sexist

Yes I realised that my post contained a possibly sexist comment about women maturing more quickly than men!

But seriously, if we are meeting our mates later, why this gap? is it because people stil see that the male should be the older and therefore senior member of a partnership?

With women living longer than men surely it makes sense for us to be settling down with men who are younger than us.

(am I being too logical? )

this is pertinent - big equal pay case against birmingham city council has just been decided, female empoyees have £600m coming to them.

How can people read stuff like this in the news (there is a lot of it about) and not see that there is still discrimination. If women had won equal pay etc already, where has this case come from IYSWIM

Bizzarely about 90% of the women I know personally are with younger partners. I'm hanging out with the rebels

ISNT was really glad to read that in the news, hopefully it'll encourage more people to stand up for equality.

My experience of my generation doesn't match that statistic... most couples I know are the same sort of age, I know a few where the man is older, and a few where the woman is older (though it's true that these always get commented on ).

Is the 4 year age gap an average (i.e. mean) statistic? if so, maybe it comes from lots of couples who are similar ages, and a few couples where the man is considerably older (i.e. second marriage)?