Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

Oooh, I'm a bit late to catch on...I didn't realise we now had a feminism topic. When did that happen? Brilliant

rosa

it's fab here!

Another latecomer here. It always amazes me when women say they're not feminists. It seems to me to be the same as saying "Of course I don't mind if you pay me less than a man, expect me to do all the housework and ignore and belittle my opinions, it's no less than I ,with my second x chromosome, deserve. While you're at it, it's fine if you intimidate me/ force yourself on me because I brought it on myself by wearing a skirt in a public place after dark having been in the pub and we all know no means yes anyway"

I was at a party last week with a lot of uni friends, we went to the last single sex college in the university when it was still single sex, breeding ground for feminism you would have thought. I brought up Kat Banyard's book, saying how amazing it was and was told "Feminism always strikes me as something only insecure women need". Lots of self satisfied agreement and nodding of heads. Ugh.

BTW would thoroughly recommend Abi Grant's "Words Can Describe" to anyone who hasn't read it. She spoke with Kat Banyard at Cambridge Wordfest and was apparently very funny and eloquent. It's her account of a sexual assault in her own home and the aftermath. She writes incredibly well and it galvanised me to try and do more as much as The Equality Illusion did.

Love this thread- some really thoughtful answers here. I have learned a lot. I do think a lot of women feel threatened by feminism- not sure why. Is it the not wanting to look assertive- as its (perceived to be) off-putting to men? (and I guess the older generation- a lot of parents I know can be quite dismissive of feminism or women being assertive in general).

In my case, when I worked for [insert name of large traditional UK high st store here] about 15 yrs ago as a 20 something single woman, I complained about one of my colleagues (male, early 50s~)getting paid more than me for exactly the same job.

My supervisor told me it was because 'He has a family to support' - that really fucked me off even then- and tbh it still does now.

Only 15yrs ago FFS!

A lot of men in my current profession (civil service- v traditional still) play lip service to us all being equal- but scratch the surface and the fact that I have a child means I am a feather brained dimwit who is not 'really' interested in the job...its a constant preconception and as a woman you have to work twice as hard as a man for recognition.

I am proud to be a feminist and challenge their lazy assumptions- and say when comments are unacceptable- but I see a lot of women let it slide, or think its somehow weak to complain.

I'd love to see a basic 'Why is feminism still relevant in our society' guide! Can I put it up on office notice board?

I'm saddened by the rejection of feminism.

Why should it be shameful to believe men and women equal?

Some people argue that they don't identify themselves as part on an oppressed group. Perhaps it is easier to ignore the endemic oppression of women. I can't believe, much as I would like to, that there is a woman alive who has not experienced some of the following at some point in their lives:

negative/judgey comments for being too interested in their looks

negative/judgey comments for not being interested enough in their looks

sexual harrassment

staying quiet about sexual harassment for fear of work disadvantage, not being taken seriously etc

being leered at/sexual

being "flashed"

being groped

being further sexually assaulted

being raped

being offered money/favours/advantage for sex
being told "that's a girl's toy"

doing more than a 50% share of work within the

having her status as a "slag" stated, implied or worried about

having her status as "frigid" stated, implied or worried about

being asked/expected to do a role associated with gender sterotypes outside of her job (make tea, do photocopying, do birthday collections)

feeling/being judged about being a SAHM

Feeling/being judged about not being a SAHM

being told to "relax" when she mentions, complains or worries about any of the above

for a start

If anyone can say these issues affect men and women to an equal or comparable extent, then they may go ahead and say oppression of women in this country is not a current issue.

also I don't really think about whether a nurse is a man or a woman, and I certainly wouldn't have issue with a man being a nurse. I'm not a character from Meet the Parents/Fockers!

and caring about gender equality (ie being a feminist) doesn't use up thinking reserves, stopping feminists from caring about other issues!

oops a bit of verbal typing diahorrea there!

Antoinette that's so true. I feel that one of the most insidious aspects of sexism is that a woman is under constant scrutiny: her appearance; behaviour; beliefs. We are supposed to smile ('Cheer up love it mght never happen') be calm ('Don't get your knickers in a twist love') and pretty ('I'd give her one') but not too available ('slag'). Underneath all that is the expectation that we should do as we are told, look a certain way and be happy about it. Otherwise we are seen as 'difficult'. This is one reason why feminists are mistrusted. We break the unspoken rules.

Men go through their lives without this perpetual assessment and unless you have experienced it, it's impossible to imagine the effect it has.

That's one reason why I am happy to be a feminist.

great list antoinette

this thread is SO HEARTENING

some of the words are missing off my precious list.

Silly old me, maybe I'm really a blonde

Fortunately it looks like you've put your pretty little heads together and know what I meant.

jokes

But yes, isn't it good to be a feminist! Just finished reading "Living Dolls". Had a chat to a couple of older guys at work about it, they were very much in agreement and had complained about other colleagues putting up topless photos out the Sun on their lockers.

Shrieking harpy - that is not saying that all men are rapists.

It is saying that they use the threat of rape to keep women in a state of fear. A fine distinction, but still a distinction.

Perhaps then we can reclaim the word feminist and stop it being used in a derogatory way. If I were asked I always say I am in favour of equal rights under the law and fairness at home.

On the work example of 50 year old man earning more though it can work the other way - my children's fathre was once told by his headmaster he wasn't getting a particular pay rise unlike a few other women teachers because I (a woman) earned too much. He also found it harder to leave work early to let our nanny go home even though he was primarily responsible for that as it was assumed women could skive out of all kinds of things but just because he was male he could be there until 6 or later every day. Feminism for me has always mostly been about fairness for the sexes and the more fair we make things for men too - such as allowing them within a marriage to make conscious decision to stay home if they prefer that rather than forcing them out to work the better the position of women is in general. Gender neutrality rules. Indeed if we gave men non transferable paternity rights - take it or lose it not given to women you'd find more men involved at home and it easier for women to work.

Well I don't have any works by Susan Brownmiller but I can see even from that quote that she isn't saying all men are rapists.

If she were, I wouldn't agree with her. This kind of nitpicking is just an attempt to distract from a robust discussion and derail this thread. If this issue is your main concern, why not start a thread called "do feminists believe all men are rapists". You know what the anser would be. It would be "no".

Absolutely Xenia. gender inequality means that women take the weight of parenting responsibility, depriving men and women of the social and economic freedom to make free choices about how they parent. Your example illustrates how women are taken to be less reliable and committed to work due to their assumed primary parenting role, and how this is damaging to individual women and men.

I have found it fascinating reading this thread.

I am none the wiser about the different types of feminism, but I don't think it matters. In my mind, feminism is simply defined as equality. Of course you can break it down into what you mean by 'equality' and that can lead to a million other questions, but equality pretty much sums it up for me. I didn't realise that so many people read more into it than that and rejected it!

I have always been a feminist, but my perspective has changed over time. When I was a young woman in my early 20s, with no family commitments and the advantage of a stable loving homelife and a university education, the world was mine for the taking and I understood feminism to simply mean equal education/career opportunities and pay. I had a tendency (though was too well-brought-up to admit it) to pity SAHMs as being downtrodden or lacking in intelligence.

Fast forward a few years and my understanding has changed. Now I have children I understand for the first time why women would WANT to stay at home with their children, and although it is not a choice I would make, I am now able to respect that. For everyone I know who is a voluntary SAHM however, I know another who is frustrated by it but finds childcare costs prohibitive (and why do we see the cost of that as solely coming from the woman's salary, rather than the family income?).

Today I am single mother, with an ex that bears no financial responsibility for his children (either in terms of maintenance or cost of childcare); an ex who is free of any daily responsibilities so can live life pretty much as he pleases. I, despite continuing to work, find my career options severely limited by childcare issues. I would dearly, dearly love to have a 'wife' in the way that men have benefitted from for centuries. If I could trust my children to be with someone deeply committed to their welfare so that I could choose to pursue my career, what I could do! But I don't have a wife, so I make the best of the childcare I have and am resigned to a stagnating career until such time my children are less reliant on me and I can change things. From a personal perspective, I believe that childcare is a feminist issue (as it mostly falls to women) that is hugely under-tackled in discussing, along with the division of household tasks.

The reason I left my ex was due to DV. Prior to my own experience I could never understand why women 'just didn't leave', and while I felt it was very much the perpetrator's fault, I felt a certain impatience with the victim. Having now been through it myself, I realise how insidious this abuse is and how subtly it starts. By the time it becomes obvious, you're too far in to be able to see it with the clarity outsiders can. Fortunately, I managed to leave and have never looked back, but I have a new understanding of DV and would dearly like to see the law changed so that DV is dealt with far more seriously than it currently is.

Likewise porn. As an empowered 20-something who wasn't oppressed, porn didn't bother me. I saw no harm in it if the woman enjoyed it too. However, now I'm a little older and less 'sheltered', I've seen the damage that such objectification of women achieves. I know there are many people who can use porn without there being any negative connotations, but there are far more who use it as an excuse to objectify and debase women. Porn doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the blatant sexualisation of women in mainstream advertising, however.

Sorry, that's very long!

BTW, can someone point me to the thread that explains about the different types of feminism, or recommend a book that introduces you to the different ideas? I'd love to broaden my knowledge on this subject.

Clearly I have been very lucky antoinette but nothing on your list resonates with me. Honestly.

I have however been bullied at school and twice in the workplace by women. I do not accept they did this because of the patriachal society we live in (which I do believe in absolutely as blackcurrants described). I believe on the whole people bully and abuse because they are bullies and abusers. On the other hand male colleagues like the men in my personal life have been very positive influences.

I do believe in the ideals of feminism as I see them - although no doubt my description of what that means would be subject to debate - equality of opportunity, choice and status for both genders but would extend that to all - full stop. In my life other causes have greater resonance.

I would never describe myself as a feminist, not because I am frightened of being seen as unattractive or aggressive. I may well be seen as that anyway! I am lucky to be secure enough to not actually give a toss what people think.

I am concerned about the potential pitfalls in our society that my daughter faces but I am equally concerned about those faced by my son - and there is no doubt that these, although different do exist.

So, in summary - I don't really know what I think about feminism - very helpful post from me, this...

TSH: yes, that's why the patriarchy hurts men too - they, too, are forced into restrictive and bullshitty gender roles.
Hence why all sensible men (as well as women) call themselves feminist and see to overturn patriarchal systems, structures, and attitudes.

Mollybob - really? I forgot to mention

opened a newspaper to be confronted by a pair of tits and then having to uncomfortably read round it

faked an orgasm

had people make assumptions about parenting roles in your household

and

the whole porn/lapdancing extravaganza

but I am pleasantly suprised (and incredulous) that you have never experienced any form of sexism, harassment or marginalisation. I am delighted for you, but hope you would recognise that your experience is highly unusual and that these experiences are familiar to the overwhelming majority of women.

gurghh, "seek to overturn" not "see to overturn" -
but you know what I mean. Saying that 'the patriarchy hurts men too' logically means that we need more feminism, not that feminists should stop whining cos it's not easy being a man in the patriarchy, either. The answer and the only cure lies in MORE feminism, not silencing feminists.

In response - I've never faked an orgasm
Yep don't like seeing tits on display - don't read those papers but yes I'll give you that
People make assumptions all the time because they're lazy but I'm not bothered by them re parenting etc as other issues/causes are more important to me
DH not in the least interested in porn etc - he never has been - we attempted once to watch some porn together and both got bored after after 5 minutes. I don't like porn but am unconvinced about how dangerous it is - is porn by objectifying women the cause of abuse or is the desire to abuse there already (a bit like the impact of violence on tv/video games on violent crime rates really)

I do appreciate I have been lucky - my parents are/were pretty liberated re gender issues and my Mum always had a career and I have achieved more than I ever expected career wise and have never been/felt that being female has held me back despite being currently pg with no 3.

I believe in feminism, for sure but I don't think about a lot usually.

TheShriekingHarpy, your examples of how men are affected are still examples of the damage done by the patriarchy. Which hurts men too. And which feminists fight to change.

Thanks, by the way, HerBeautitude, I was going to make exactly the same response re: Brownmiller. I actually wish I'd thought to use that excerpt when we were talking about Asking For It - she's arguing the same as most of us were over on that thread; the threat of rape is used to control women.

Good lord I love this feminism section, I'm really enjoying how the threads are coming together.

glitterkitty, in around 1980 my mother and her husband were both working as computer programmers for the same firm. My mother went for a promotion, which she was eminently qualified for and met all the criteria to achieve - it wasn't a matter of several competitors, it was the sort of promotion that just happens on merit once you've got to a certain level - and her boss told her that she couldn't have the promotion purely because then she'd be senior to her own husband and that wouldn't be right. Mum offered to have her husband come in and reassure the boss that he was entirely fine with it (FFS) and the boss said no, it wouldn't be right, you can't be promoted.

TheShriekingHarpy, your examples of how men are affected are still examples of the damage done by the patriarchy. Which hurts men too. And which feminists fight to change.

Thanks, by the way, HerBeautitude, I was going to make exactly the same response re: Brownmiller. I actually wish I'd thought to use that excerpt when we were talking about Asking For It - she's arguing the same as most of us were over on that thread; the threat of rape is used to control women.

Good lord I love this feminism section, I'm really enjoying how the threads are coming together.

glitterkitty, in around 1980 my mother and her husband were both working as computer programmers for the same firm. My mother went for a promotion, which she was eminently qualified for and met all the criteria to achieve - it wasn't a matter of several competitors, it was the sort of promotion that just happens on merit once you've got to a certain level - and her boss told her that she couldn't have the promotion purely because then she'd be senior to her own husband and that wouldn't be right. Mum offered to have her husband come in and reassure the boss that he was entirely fine with it (FFS) and the boss said no, it wouldn't be right, you can't be promoted.

And also, once the Patriarchy is destroyed, no-one will ever double post again.