Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

I'm amazed anyone wouldn't want to call themselves feminist.

To me saying I wasn't a feminist would be like admitting to being a racist. To me feminism is wanting women to be treated equally. Not discriminating against women. What's not to like?

I am against all forms of discrimination. Discrimination against women is just one type of discrimination I oppose.

Remember, (at least) half of those making up those other groups that are discriminated against (disabled, non-white, poor, etc.) are women. They are disadvantaged on both counts. Wanting them not to be discriminated against on the basis of their sex is a big part of opposing the injustices they face.

I think feminism has a lot of bad press, but honestly I couldn't be anything else.

And yes, MN feminism section rocks!

i will count myself as a feminist until the day comes that women in every country in the world have the right to make reproductive choices, live on their own, drive a car, take any job at equal pay to men, and otherwise be recognised as fully equal under the laws of the country.

Why are women still living like slaves in some countries, when society no longer tolerates male slaves?

I'm a feminist and proud to call myself a feminist

There's too much to comment on here but I like SkaterGrrrl's last post, I also agree with many of the posts about equal pay for work of equal value.

Where indeed are all these feminists who put everyone off with their radical ideas?

I'm been reading this thread with great interest and agree totally with Kinderella - why wouldn't any woman call themselves feminist?

I always liked this quote from Rebecca West:

'I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a door mat or a prostitute.'

Count me in too: what's not to like about being a feminist? I'm very proud of the women's movements that have made it possible for me to work for equal pay, to vote, to get a divorce etc...

I don't call myself a feminist because I don't feel I really understand what feminism is about nowadays.

In the UK over the past century:-

Women have fought for the vote and won.
Women have fought for equal pay and in the eyes of the law have won.
Women have fought for choice about lifestyle, ie, the right to make the decision about whether to work or to bring up children and we have won on that too.

What are we fighting for nowadays (I am talking exclusively in the UK) - I actually don't know and don't understand (unless of course you want to talk about why people are sexist towards secretaries - but that is on another thread).

Ali, to quote just a few stats:

• women in the UK are paid 22.6% less per hour than men

• women do two thirds of the world's work, yet receive 10% of the world's income and own 1% of the means of production

• At least 100,000 women are raped each year in the UK and the rape conviction rate is 6.5%

• Only 18.3% of the world's members of parliament are women (the UK figure is under 20%)

(from The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard)

I would consider myself a feminist.

Out of genuine curiosity though Molesworth, why are women being paid on average less? I can only presume it is because the work they do is not equivalent to what men are. I work in academia and get paid exactly the same as my male colleagues. Equal work = equal pay.

Why are women not in parliament. I have no clue, I can only presume they do not want to be there (it certianly doesn't appeal to me anyway!). is there evidence that women are applying for jobs and not getting them.

The rape conviction rate is extremely disheartening.

On a bit of tangent here, but i find that women to women abuse can be extremely detrimental (verbal and physical) and may be something that the feminist cause should tackle. I know sisterhood and all that is a bit of a cliche, but sometimes it seems we do more damage bitching and arguing between ourselves...

I'm not Molesworth, but on your point Roo about women in parliament, I recall reading that for a lot of women, the late nights and need to be away from home meant that they had to choose between politics and family. The assumption is that there will be a 'wife' at home to keep the home fires burning.

Roo, on the pay gap issue, here's an example (from academia):

"A PAY divide still exists between men and women working at Cambridge University, a new report has shown.

The latest equal pay review found the average salary taken home by male employees is £38,703 ? £9,000 more than the average for women at £29,772.

The report reveals just over half ? 51 per cent ? of the jobs are taken up by men, who dominate the more senior positions, with more women in lower-paid positions.

It revealed 60 per cent of positions at the lowest level ? grade one ? are held by women, compared to just 14 per cent of jobs in the top grade 12 band. "

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Cambridge/Gender-pay-gap-at-Uni.htm

thanks for the rapid clarification!

it is complicated. I would certainly agree taht there are more women in the admin/clerical jobs, so there will be a pay gap. But women at any level will get paid the same as a man at the same level. There are surprisingly few women academics in my department, but is this their choice? I am happy at my current level, enjoy my work and could potentially go for promotion. However, I enjoy my current work-life balance, am lucky enough to enjoy a comfortable salary and therefore am in no particular hurry to go for a higher level post. It comes back to this issue of choice, and this is where, to me, the issue becomes hazy. Is the pay gap there because women are just choosing to not take the jobs or is there really a barrier preventing them?

I was paid less than the men for doing the same hours in the same job at the same level.

Forget the business about women being paid less as they go part time, take time out to have children, take lower paid local jobs after children etc.

In plenty of industries women are paid less than their male counterparts for doing exactly the same work.

In the sector I was in, the gender pay gap is 40%. It is an industry where actually women are fairly well represented up to middle management and many men do entry level jobs. So they are managing a 40% gap even with a fairly even split of genders in the low and medium paid jobs.

A bit more on women in politics:

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/spconf/167/167we77.htm

Oops www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/spconf/167/167we77.htm

What I mean is that the women are being paid less from entry level all the way up through the ranks.

ali how can yuo say on the one hand that you don't know what feminism is all about and on teh other hand have a thread about people being sexist about secretaries. That is a bit confusing!

Gosh who wants to be a feminist? "Feminist", as every sensible girl knows means "ugly", which is one of the very worst things a woman can be. It means "unattractive to men"; it means "lesbian". One penalty, and there are many others, is to be ostracised by other women who will not wish to align themselves with you for fear that they will be tarred with the same terrible brush.

Anyway I have it on very good authority from a childhood friend of mine (who stayed over at my house last night and spent the morning wandering about wearing only a pair of very tight boxershorts, which behaviour I found unsettlingly agressive - but obviously I didn't want to offend him by objecting) that it is far better to be a woman than a man, and that by far the most disadvantaged group in our society these days is white middle class males between the ages of 16 and 25.

Naturally I was only too pleased to have my consciousness raised.

Thanks for the info Gherkins and imsonot..

Forgive my ignorance and naivety on the subject but i'm enjoying being educated!

and the reason we still have lower earnings? our work needs to be more flexible and transient than that of men. we have to take huge amounts of time off to look after our children and the media makes us feel guilty when we do return to work.

men need to be given greater rights when it comes to paternity leave. just another wonderful thread of feminism, that looks like it isn't, but is. like the contraceptive pill, this will give women even more choice and freedom in their lives.

also (how fair is this?), i trained and have the same qualifications, although in a different profession, as my husband. i am paid almost half the wage he is. now i think this may be down to the reluctance of women to unionise and i work in a female dominated industry (nursery nurse) and he in a male one (mechanic). that is probably down to the fact that women don't like to rock the boat and put up with a lot more crap.

now i know i sound fairly ranty. i wasn't for a long time, but my second daughter is now three months old and i can't stand the thought of my girls feeling that being a woman is less than being a man. the negativity on this thread is so strange, when i'm sure the majority of us agree with the campaign to let girls be girls. that's as feminist as you get. together womankind is a force to be reckoned with.

dittany: "There have been a whole lot of arguments made on this thread - but Fluffles decides to reduce them down to "blah blah" and then dismiss them as if there was no substance to them whatsoever (I also think she twisted the original argument somewhat too). So what feminists are actually saying, their strong arguments, their reasoning count for nothing."

I most certainly do NOT dismiss all the arguments just because i shortened them to blah blah.. maybe an ellipsis would have been better to use. sorry.

BUT i thought that the thread said 'why do some women not self identify as feminists?' (btw. i'm not saying i don't) i answered that IN MY EXPERIENCE it can be because it can be scary when people with very strong well-read beliefs come in and try to tear your 'argument' apart when it was never supposed to be an argument just a statement of how you feel or your own experience.

MY experience is that it is indeed scary to enter into discussions about feminism if you don't have a LOT of experience of the arguments or are willing to study a lot of the writings. And you can find yourself under personal attack for your own lifestyle choices on the back of whether you say you are or are not keen to be called 'feminist'.

zobopopstar great post. Very rousing

There is a gender pay gap though before women have their children, isn't there, and for people in the same jobs.

I mean we're not going to get anywhere with why nurses are paid less than binmen (or whatever) until we have sorted out why men and women in the same jobs at the same companies with teh same hours and teh same skill and experienec levels are being paid different sums.

We can't even get teh very basic stuff done at the moment.

They wanted to force companies over a certai size to reveal average male ad female salaries didn;t they - I wonder what happened to that.

Yes to parental leave rather than maternity - at risk of sounding "what about the men" it will also advantage the vast numbers of men who would relish more time with their children when they are little.

Meant to say earlier in the thread (or maybe it was on another thread ... I'm losing track of all these feminism discussions!) that I agree with you Lenin that if we could just get equal representation in parliament that alone would make a massive, positive difference. The knock on effects in terms of legislation would be huge.

I support women-only shortlists for this reason. Get more women into parliament ASAP. Then perhaps the issues affecting us will have a chance of being addressed seriously.

I'm a guy and a feminist as I understand it.

Which is 1: no sexual assault/rape. 2. No physical assault/murder 3. Equal pay

None of which have been achieved.

All the stuff about being sexy or sahm-ing doesn't come into it. women can do what they want, including making choices i might think daft/good. i know women who love careers and ones who have eighty four kids and bake biscuits. it's all good.

As an aside men also hate other men, misandrism, very powerful.

Haven't read all the messages but wanted to say that I consider myself a feminist.

I try to teach my daughters that they deserve respect, they have rights over thier own bodies, over thier own decisions and ambitions and generally to be treated equally, and with equal and fair representation. NONE of which takes away from the amazing possibility that they will one day be mothers, it seems bizarre that anyone would think so.

Even they often point out the inequalities to me - today "but why are they all men? Why can't we choose a woman prime minister?"

There is still a lot to fight for - in my own life - why do I and my colleagues work bloody hard and study hard in an almost entirely female proffesion to get paid minimum wage in a career with high responsibility and high risks? Why do I have apparently decent people turn the other way when I walk past simply because I have the cheek to leave a controlling and moderately violent marriage? Thats before we start talking about rape conviction rates etc etc. These things NEED to be changed, and I hope against hope that will happen before my daughters are adults. Once again, none of that is anti-men and I find it bizarre that anyone would think so.