Why some women don't identify with feminism

[happysmiley]

I aaw on another tread someone saying that the more they thought about it, the more they thought they weren't a feminist. Someone else on a different thread said that the Feminism topic has a "reputation" elsewhere. I know that if I were to ask most of my female friends if they were feminists, I'd probably just get a puzzled look, maybe a reluctant "yes" but not much enthusiasm.

So why is this? Why don't women identify with feminism?

And what can we do to get women on board? Because if women aren't willing to sign up, men hardly will.

Same here molesworth.

I think I must have been drinking in teh wrong places. I also think I spent rather too much time talking to men

These days of course I never go out...

Ditto ISNT

Thinking about it, when I was working in IT I was often the only woman in my workplace, so that might explain it!

Fluffles I totally agree.

And Dittany she is using "blah blah" rather than filling in the blanks, I assume, because to fill in the blanks would be a whole new conversation. Rather than because she thinks things don't matter.

There seems to be checklist of what you must and mustn't think before you are "allowed" to call yourself a feminist. Whereas if you say you believe in equality then it's easily understandable and nobody questions whether you do or not.

There's no legal definition but if you want to encourage more women to stay at home and serve men it's stretchign it a bit to say that's femininst.
I suspect all feminists would agree we want men and women to have equal rights under the law and fairness at home. That's how I define what I am as core beliefs on these issues.

Agree with Xenia's baseline definition.

Yes, there is disagreement among feminists about the nature and extent of the problems which keep women down and therefore what the solutions might be, but the common ground is the understanding that women are systematically disadvantaged, that this is unfair and that something needs to be done about it. Pretty simple really.

Molesworth, I suspect 'systematically disadvantaged' is where I would probably diverge as to the degree.

"Really? Where? Are you seeing many examples of that on this thread?"

Not on this thread no. Thankfully. But I have heard (more times than I care to count) "you cannot be feminist because.."

It's a real shame that you've been put off by those people, Kaloki. Don't know what else I can say about that, other than - once again - where the heck are all these feminists hanging out?!

It's an interesting comment about male nurses. No, I don't judge a male nurse, although it was very challenging a few weeks ago when we were at Children's Hospital and all the medical people were wearing blue scrubs. I realized though it didn't really matter who was the nurse/doctor as both were perfectly capable of medically helping DD.

It wasn't so much male = doctor and female = nurse as general confusion because I didn't know who was who!

I don't ever hear anyone say "I'm not an anti-racist beause I think issues like poverty, homophobia and specific forms of racism like anti-semitism are really important as well." They know that you can be anti-racist and care about other stuff, just as with feminism.

Sometimes people don't want to self-identify as feminist because they are afraid that a whole load of tossers other people will instantly assume that they believe a whole load of stuff that they may or may not. If you say you're anti-racist, no-one immediately loads a whole load of other baggage on you, they simply accept that you don't hold with racism. Whereas with feminism, they immediately start demanding to know which "brand" you adhere to - because they are hostile to it. I've only ever been quizzed about what form of feminism I adhere to, by people who are hostile to feminism. Other feminists don't start demanding doctrinal clarity from me.
And it's only ever anti-feminists who say "you can't be a feminist because..." because they desperately want reasons as to why people shouldn't/ can't be feminists.

I have never had anyone say I "can't" be a feminist, and i know I disagree with the grand high poobah of feminism on at least one quite important issue.

IMO anyone who wants to see an end to sexism, here and around the world, and all of the things that leads to, is a feminist.

Maybe people would be more likely to subscribe to a label of "anti-sexism"?

As for women not being systematically disadvantaged - I can see it here in the UK and I have experienced it.

And if not in the UK - surely people can see that across the world there is a problem with women being kept down?

When people saw apartheid in SA - they didn't say that it wasn't happening in the UK so why care/get involved/label oneself as anti-apartheid. Yet if women around teh world are having a terrible time people don't want to align themselves with teh people who want to change things and make them better?

Plus teh arguments against women being systematically disadvantaged in the UK wind me up no end. For eg when the fact that women earn less than men at all ages etc etc is mentioned people say (in short):
Women are not as ambitious as men
Women are biologically programmed to mate, breed and raise children and earning money/being successful is just not very important to them
Women prefer low paid local jobs
Women get satisfaction from low paid menial jobs
Women are a bit thick and don't cut it
and stuff like that. Dressed up in more flowery language but that is what it boils down to.

Do people really believe this? Even when reports and studys have shown time and time again that pay differentials are due to sexism?

Then the argument that if individual women are low paid it is their fault for not playing the game properly rather than the fault of their large powerful empoyer cheating them. Really?

Sorry got a bit ranty there.

Hope that hasn't put anyone off.

Re salaries, I had a very long debate with my boss last week about whether women really get paid less than men. Dispite all the published evidence, his counter arguement was that he sees all the salaries for his team and the women are higher paid (true but they are also more senior). He even went to the extent of calling a mutual recruitment consultant friend to get him to support his argument. This went on all week.

Then on Friday, I said that there was also statistical evidence to show that tall people get paid more than short people. "Oh really?" "Yes, here's the web link to the research." Not another word about it.

Left wondering why it's so much easier to believe that tall people get paid more than short people, than that men get paid more than women.

People don't want to believe in systematic sexism do they?

Because if they did, they would either have to change it, or decide to be part of the problem, something no-one ever wants to think of themself as being.

That's very revealing happysmiley, really interesting.

I think of myself as a feminist

Of course I'm a feminist!

Why wouldnt I identify with the cause that liberated me?

Oh, good, I love this topic. No time to read now but YAY am feminista without apology.

Will come back with more pertinent apercus later.

"However, I think that in order to align myself with one of them, I would need to be actively involved, .... as having felt the effect of it."

Hope have you never felt the effect of living in a society that views women as inferior?

• Never felt vulnerable jogging at night or making your way home alone after dark?
• Never felt pressure to try to look thin and pretty?
• Never been asked to make the teas in a business meeting, just because you're the only one present without a penis?
• Never been yelled at by workers on a building site?
• Never been outraged by an advert or billboard depicting women as madonnas (the perfect martyr mum of washing powder adverts) or whores (the crawling, panting, open-mouthed 18 year old blonde selling casinos or tyres with legs akimbo)?

In my experience, to live in the world is to be reminded daily that my safety on the streets is not guaranteed; my appearance is up for judgement & comment by all and, in the office, I am a 2nd class citizen. And I am lucky enough to live in the democratic west, where (on paper anyway) women have equal rights to men.

This is why feminism matters - until we enjoy the same freedoms as men, we are not equal.

Good post, skater

We've made it into discussions of the day!

Phew, yesterday I thought I'd unleashed a monster, but if it gets people wandering in and thinking about feminism, that's good enough for me

I heart the MN feminist section!