asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

Are you going to answer me or just chide me for my language?

In the specific context of rape, which is what we are talking about, what situations are more dangerous than others? I assume you know, since you've referred to them several times now.

But soap, I didn't say you were blaming me.

But you did say that there were some situations that women should avoid, one you mentioned was being alone. I did that, I made sure that I was with a friend. So, I'm looking for more advice, what else could I have done?

I'd like to stop short of refusing to see any of my male friends again because 99% of them have never tried to rape me. But anything else I'm willing to consider.

Totally agree about instinct and that we are conditioned to not "upset people" by doing things like moving carriage to get away from people who make us nervous and so on. People (not just women) need to be able to give themselves permission to do what their instincts tell them to do, rather than what society tells them to do.

I am impressed that in this section we have a reputation

Is a shame if people are seriously staying away - but on the other side, if people do want to talk about this stuff, they know where to come.

i think this topic is wonderful.

frankly i think soapbox knows she is wrong, but doesnt know how to say so.

and yes, i suppose people who think that women are in fact responsible in ANY degree for rape absolutely should stay the hell out of this topic. if for no other reason than they will find it impossible to defend their position against reasoned counter argument.

I can imagine that the people who want to stay away from this topic, do not have very convincing or well informed arguments.

So yes, best you do stay away if that's the case....

I've just caught up with this thread... It's depressing how many of us have been raped or sexually assaulted. I doubt this is possible but I wonder what the percentage of MNers would be? An anonymous poll would be very revealing, I expect...

Have you seen that awful thread BDSM where the question was asked and so many people came and told their stories?

I think that it's a fair bet that many women in this topic will have had bad encounters with men - it's certainly where my interest initially came from. I always fely equal and intelligent and powerful and did science and was confident. And then a man was able to do whatever he wnated just because he was bigger than me. It came as quite a shock.

I would love to know what the incidence of rape and sexual assualt really is in the population. Didn't the WI do a survey of their members and half reported that they had been assaulted or something? They did it to try and dispel rape myths - obviously WI members have a certain image and to reveal that they were getting assulated willy nilly was something they hoped would make people sit up and take notice.

My personal experience, based on conversations with friends, is that it's about 75%, and I don't live in a 'high risk' area, nor do we walk alone at night in disproportionate numbers.

I have been lurking on this thread and I just wanted to say that I think its a really great topic!

I have been avidly reading all your posts which are just so good. Its just so needed to hear this logically reasoned out. I'm so glad MN has this section!

I also just wanted to say that I am so sorry to read that so many of you have been sexually assaulted or raped. It has horrified me reading this thread.

Just refreshed the page and would add regarding rape and sexual assault incidences that of myself and my friends, its likely to be at least 50%, possibly much higher if I actually asked those who haven't mentioned it.

That's terrible.

I had never thought about how many of us were affected before.

I bet that even if we've never been raped or sexually assaulted ourselves we all know at least one woman who has

I just wanted to say I am sorry so many of us have experienced sexual assault

and to acknowledge "hoo" who posted her story upthread and got missed as it is moving so fast

hoo, I am glad you finally understand it was not your fault

I suspect that if any of us were to go and ask all our friends the percentages would be much higher than we would ever expect.

I know that up until very recently I had never told anyone what he did, not my DH, not any of my friends. I suspect that I'm not alone in keeping these things secret.

God, yes, I'm so sorry hoo and thank you AF - I meant to acknowledge your post too

very fast-moving thread innit ?

sometimes when you come in late and aren't "caught up in the moment", you spot those that go under the radar, somewhat

Certainly haven't failed to notice the personal experiences shared on this thread. My blood runs cold when I read them.

Not long ago my mum told me an awful story about what happened to her cousin when she was a teenager. She was gang raped by a bunch of soldiers (this was at a military base in the UK). What happened? She was deemed "out of control" and was put into a psychiatric institution.

More than any other issue this is the one that reveals the lie that we have 'achieved equality' imho

So many stories always told on these threads, it is so sad.

And then people have a go at us for getting angry about it

I was typing earlier but DD messed it up - about what is counted as sexual assault. We are conditioned to think that certain things are actually OK and don't see them as assault. Things like someone feeling your bum in the pub. We are taught to see that as "a bit of fun" and laugh it off, when in fact it is a secual assault. Then there are all the things like flashing and following which are put in a different category as well.

If you include all the things that people prefer not to include ie things that are "not serious" then I doubt many women have got through their lives without something happening.

How long ago was that molesworth?

That happened in the 60s ISNT. I hope that such a thing wouldn't happen now, but things haven't changed that much for the better. I doubt she would have been put in a psychiatric institution nowadays, but I also doubt that the men who raped her would be brought to justice if it happened today.

Agree with your point about the 'less serious' things and the confusion about what counts as assault.

Thanks AF and Molesworth.

My point was that I think the "asking for it" view has become so pervasive that women often accept in large part that any thing that happens is their fault. I suspect that this is fairly common, but if women themselves think this, what hope is there?

Reading people's personal experiences I realise that I'm really lucky never to have encountered anything like rape. It must be the most terrible thing that can happen to someone.

I don't know what we can do about being raped by people we know, other than report it and stick with it so they get convicted.

I think the "advice" to women must ring really hollow for someone who's been raped but I can also kind of understand it - if I thought someone was about to attack me, I'd shout as loud as I could, run off (if possible - I'm not very fast) or try to fight back. All those things would be more difficult if I was on my own, somewhere I didn't know or v drunk. Maybe it's not about "preventing" rape but about being better able to defend yourself if something does happen?

I'm so sorry dittany . I really didn't want to upset anyone by posting.