asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

Rape is a singular crime in that we judge the victim as much as the rapist. I've done it myself when reading the paper 'Well what the hell was she doing there at 2 in the monring anyway?' Then I check myself. She had every right to be there. Just as women have every right to get drunk, wear what they like etc.

However, just as i might defend my right to do all or none of these things, I also have to accept the reality that some men are dangerous and putting myself into some situations might mean that I am more likely to meet some of these men. It does not mean that a lesser crime has occured or that the victim has suffered less or the the rapist should serve less time. It just means that there are some things that individuals can do to lessen their chances of being attacked. Not in all situations but some.

"A car will only hit you if you drunkenly walked onto the motorway. ....
What about if you can't remember whether you said yes or no - because you were too drunk?
Is that responsible?"

So a man will only rape you if you're drunk? Oh, thank goodness for that, that's good of him. Women shouldn't get drunk then.

Is it responsible to have sex with a drunk?

"It's not punishable by rape, but actions -> consequences. Some people are hazy on that connection"

Did you mean some women are hazy on that connection?

Are you still saying rape is an issue of women's behaviour.

The facts of society are, that some men, thankfully a tiny minority, will take advantage of a drunken woman. Fortunately the majority of men wouldn't dream of such a thing.
But I think we all have to have personal responsibility for our actions, and if you are drunk enough not to remember wtf has gone on the night before, then you are responsible for not being in control of yourself.
Rape is a horrific crime with long lasting effects for the victim. I'm saying, don't help yourself be a victim.

Milly, Gay, I'd love to know what the warning signs of a dangerous male acquaintance are, that you see it.

And soapbox, what actions do you think are more likely to "get you raped"

And why are you disappearing the rapist from this conversation? Look at all this passive voice being used - women get themselves raped, actions lead to consequences, half of you aren't even using the word 'rapist' in discussing what causes rape.

(Hint: it's rapists)

There isn't a warning sign, and this is my point really.
Why aren't more rapists convicted?

Ah, tortoiseonthehalfshell - couldn't have put it better....

As someone whose first time having sex was a rape that occured while I was too drunk to properly fight him off (though I did say no, believe me I remember)this infuriates me.

I was 18, I got drunk, I went to my boyfriend's house and expected him to stop when I said stop. Does that mean I "asked for it"?

'Is it responsible to have sex with a drunk?' ~ No if you don't know the drunk and you don't know 110% that they would consent if they were sober (i.e. you have been married several years, though even then it could be questionable depending upon the drunkeness of the person) it is not responsible nor is it legal it is called 'being incapable of giving informed consent'

My drunk friend asked in a take away if she could use the loo. They said yes. What they failed to inform her of was the fact that five of them were going to bundle her out of the back door and rape her.

But still she was drunk, young and wearing little. I guess she asked for it?

Gay40 -

More rapists aren't convicted because of such attitudes as:

"she was asking for it" and
"actions -> consequences". (to quote you)

CheerfulYank and ShinyandNew - so sorry to hear that, how appalling.

It is appalling really-to wake up hungover, in a puddle of your own blood, realizing that this is what you're going to remember when people talk about their first times, realizing that there are going to be people who think it's your fault b/c you weren't tucked into bed with a mug of tea at 9 o'clock like a "good girl", realizing that there are going to be those who say you asked for it.

Yes, I was drunk when I was raped. Not too drunk to make it clear that I didn't consent, and not too drunk to forget it. Just too drunk to report it, because I knew even at 16 that the fact of my inebriation would be used against ME not HIM and I'd be considered at fault.

And I'm sure he knew that too when he made the decision, actually. The attitude of 'don't make yourself a victim' ASSISTS rapists.

"The attitude of 'don't make yourself a victim' ASSISTS rapists."

Here, here!

The "asking for it" ethos is still going strong in my experience.
There was a recent case in the west of Ireland where a drunk miniskirted woman was raped and the act caught on cctv.
After the court case which resulted in a non custodial sentence, the rapist was met by a line of men from the town waiting to shake his hand in support (including the parish priest).
She was drinking with him (the rapist) all night.
She's known to be a drinker
She's a single mother
It truly was seen as a miscarraige of justice.

Milly, Gay by all means women should take care of themselves and be safe. We should also take responsibility for our actions but no matter how ill judged any woman behaves drunk or sober nothing deserves rape or any assault.

Dear Lord, scout, are you serious? What case was this?

"But I think we all have to have personal responsibility for our actions, and if you are drunk enough not to remember wtf has gone on the night before, then you are responsible for not being in control of yourself."

Gay40, no one's disputing the 'personal responsibility' we all have for getting drunk and 'not being in control'. Getting drunk isn't the crime - raping someone is - drunk or not.

Are you saying that, should a woman go out on the town and get drunk, her inebriation should go some way to excuse her rapist? That she is in some way to blame for her own rape? That she somehow deserves it? 'Asks for it'?

The fact that anyone can still subscribe to the concept of 'contributory negligence' appals me.

Surely, such views are not acceptable in the 21st century?

"After the court case which resulted in a non custodial sentence, the rapist was met by a line of men from the town waiting to shake his hand in support (including the parish priest)."

Doesn't that speak volumes?

Holy Christ! It's enough to make your blood run cold.

I had to abandon a thread I posted here, about yet another survey that showed more than half of women think a woman may be partially responsible for her own rape. I got very angry with some respondents' insistence that there is such a thing as "safe behaviour" - which will save you from being raped.

I think you made a good point, that many women are very scared of being assaulted and like to think they can protect themselves by - er, not having too much fun.

I wish they'd get it through their silly heads that rape isn't some "accident waiting to happen" like driving drunk. Also that it's not really about sex. It's a crime of violence, a hate crime.

I read that the law's being modified to remove the rule about 'informed consent', which is supposed to protect drunk/drugged victims. Does anyone know more about that?

Yep GP it was in a small town in limerick last year.
The worrying thing is the comments about the victim being drunk and a single mother were related to me by a very close friend who lives in the town and knows the woman and rapist.

She felt it was relevant information, although the woman didn't deserve what happened it was felt she had in some way allowed it to happen.

Thanks Scout - the worrying thing is this doesn't surprise me.

Thanks Scout - the worrying thing is this doesn't surprise me.

I wonder what information was thought 'relevant' for the rapist.

Rape is wrong no matter what the circumstances but it does not mean that a discussion about personally safety cannot run along side.