asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

tortoise, well written. It's true that I have developed some of my opinions on issues by lurking on threads and watching a debate unfold. The same may well be happening here.

(Thank you, BDSM, KT, LB)

Blimey! We've been radicalised by Mumsnet! 'Bout bloody time!

GP

Now that would be something... I've been thinking about how I can get this message out more. Why can't the BBC or one of the nationals run an analysis of this? I know the old patriarchal stuff would inhibit it but I think it might become possible?

Maybe one of the women's mags? Can't envisage it in how Cosmo is now although back in the day...

Need to think more on this and if anyone has any mind-sharpeners, may I borrow one?

I haven't had time to keep up with this whole thread, but I just wanted to put: I talk about my rape (obviously not in casual conversation) to teenagers whenever it comes up. I let the girls know what can happen, that they need to know that it is not their fault, etc. I let the boys know that it is not a joke, that sex with an unwilling or unconcious woman is no different that yanking a woman into a dark alley with a knife. They chuckle until I tell them what happened to me; it's a little hard to laugh for them when they are looking into my eyes and listening to my story. It's hard to talk about, but it was not my fault and I will not be ashamed of something I couldn't control.

I wonder if there's a program where victims can talk to young men/boys and tell their stories? Maybe they'd think twice about "oh well she was drinking, she probably wants it, blah blah blah".

Some great posts here especially regarding victim behaviour, a lot of that rang bells with me as well and would explain some stuff.

A thread about that would be great.

Discussion of the day - it's just a guess but maybe MN wouldn't signpost to a thread where women are talking about being raped - it might be seen as insensitive. Or maybe it's not the sort of heavy discussion they want on their front page?

I love all of the conversations on here - I just wonder what it all means in terms of can we do anything about it.

CheerfulYank, I think your willingness to talk about your experience is both very brave and very helpful.

Many men (and many women) have a certain (tabloid led) impression of women who are raped and it's important that men realise that it's happening to all kinds of women and some of them are their sisters, partners and their friends.

Thanks, happy , I hope so.

Another point that's being made on this thread that I feel is very important is the prevalence of men who grab women's bodies, make lewd comments, etc, and it's allowed. Women just give a men-will-be-men-and-what-can-you-do expression, when really what is needed is a good slap across the face or at the very least a stern remark. As someone else said, some men seem to think that women are just around for the grabbing, so if they're always available anyway, when they're too drunk to say no that must mean yes, and even if they do say no they really don't mean it.

I realise I am late but wanted to say I am forever grateful to my mother for teaching me that I had a right to expect other people to respect my boundaries, including authority figures, friends, family etc. As a result of this I did spend my university years slapping perfectly nice, well brought up and educated men in the face for trying to grope me in various bars and night clubs. I was deeply satisfied the day one of them told me that he was now terrified of touching a woman in any circumstance without clear invitation in case she turned out to be like me and he got a good sock in the mouth!

I have graduated to the slightly less teenage 'pointed and loud' comment in most cases, or grabbing wrist, removing hand, holding it up and giving a very pointed look where noise levels are high as one assault probably doesn't really justify another. Nonetheless I really do believe that in terms of taking reponsibility for our personal safety, vigourously and publically defending your own boudnaries does you far more good than not going out at night - and in the long run it might actually protect other women by making men think twice about their own actions.

Incdentally, I had a male friend who permanently severed contact after I refused his offer of an escort home on the basis that acually I was statistically far safter on my own than with a male friend, particularly at 3am after a good night out. No great loss of a friend I suspect...

I am grateful to my mother for telling me all these things...

I bet your huffy friend was really surprised by that IM.

Funny how he felt that his feelings of being hurt, offended etc., took priority over your right to be safe, to the extent that he felt he couldn't be friends with you anymore.

Sorry, feel safe, I meant.

Not saying you wouldn't have been safe with him, but it was absolutely reasonable to take the view that there's no way of knowing.

Irrationalmother - were insinuating that he might attack you?

...Yes? And?

Sorry for gap - weekend got in the way.

HerBeatitude, msrisotto - I suppose the thing I was trying to get across to him was that I felt perfectly safe going home on my own, and actually didn't want him to put himself out to 'see me home' in completely the wrong direction as there was no need, and if he really thought I should be concerned about my safety then refusing his escort was statistically a better bet, between two highly unlikely risks. I don't think I would have been unsafe with him, but I suppose you never know! I thought it was interesting that he was so offended about it!

?Women have no rights, if those who violate their rights go unpunished,? Margot Wallström, the Secretary-General?s Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict, told the 15-member body.

Ending impunity for sexual violence is a critical part of the Council?s broader mandate to shepherd situations ?from might to right, from rule of war to rule of law, from bullets to ballots,? she noted.

?If women continue to suffer sexual violence, it is not because the law is inadequate to protect them, but because it is inadequately enforced.?

story here

She's talking about the DRC, but it seems to me that a 6% conviction rate in the UK is pretty close to 'impunity' too

Judging by a thread in relationships at the moment, being drunk and asleep in the same room as your child means you are "asking for it"

🧟‍♀️