asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

"Why do people find it so hard to understand that not all situations are equally safe or not safe? I agree that women should not be kept in or curtailed but some situations are just more dangerous than others?"

Given that this conversation is about rape, your prevarication notwithstanding:

WHAT. FUCKING. SITUATIONS???

Just been looking at the RAINN website and some of it is most odd.

There is a section called What can men do? which has me scratching my head as none of the things listed seem specific to men.

I particularly like this one:

If you see someone in danger of being assaulted:...
If you know the perpetrator, tell him or her that you do not approve of what s/he is doing. Ask him or her to leave the potential victim alone."

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh that's strong isn't it. Ask them to leave him/her alone.

Also like the way that at the top it says "Even so, it is important to remember that the vast majority of men are not rapists. " then goes on to say "s/he" throughout.

It also doesn't mention that men should not rape people, or should not have sex with people who are unconscious, or anything like that, anywhere.

Language.

It's about degrees of risk though isn't it. There is not a situation that anyone could say you won't get raped here as apposed to you will get raped there.

I'm not 100% safe in a group or 100% vulnerable alone but I'm not as safe alone. That holds true for mugging and general assult too. Lone people are more vulnerable.

It is an american charity. I think there was some debate there years ago that if someone didn't say no or was incapable was it legally rape under their laws at the time. Not 100% on that though.

You're not safer in a group, if the group you're with is a group of men who suddenly turn on you.

Or when you say "safer in a group" does it have to be a mixed or female group?

Oh right so as it is an american charity they don't need to give advice to men like "don't have sex with people who are unconscious" as their laws may not see that as wrong.

What about it being morally wrong?

I mean, it was legal here a few years back for men to rape their wives. That didn't make it fine, and not worth mentioning, surely.

Are you going to answer me or just chide me for my language?

In the specific context of rape, which is what we are talking about, what situations are more dangerous than others? I assume you know, since you've referred to them several times now.

soap, surely you're more safe if you're on your own? If you're on your own, you're not with a man who could potentially rape you.

My mistake was that I allowed one of my friends to walk me home. I thought that made me more safe but sadly not.

Again degrees of risk. It depends who the friends are doesn't it.

Was looking for the statistic about rape at american universities (it is rife - basically accepted as a normal behaviour by men and a fact of life by women) and found this article which is v good and discusses what we are discussing here.

The stat is that a conservative estimate is that 1 in 10 women will be raped while they are at university. That's just a few short years, not the lifetimes of these women. It's scary.

soapbox wrote: Again degrees of risk. It depends who the friends are doesn't it.

WHAAAAAt????are you serious?

But soap, how do you tell? If you know, please tell us, because I'm keen that the same thing doesn't happen again.

I'd known this guy for years. He seemed like a nice guy. None of my other friends commented or stopped me from accepting his offer to walk me home. The girls in the group thought it was a really good idea.

But how do you tell which friends and nice and normal and which friends are rapists?

There isn't any way of telling, is there?

once again soapbox, you are saying the victim is responsible for the rape becasue she didnt chose her friends wisely!

is there a jaw drpped emoticon anywhere......

"Some situations are more dangerous than others"

So what are these situations that make rape more likely. Can you really not see that by blaming the "situation" you are absolving the rapist of responsibility?

Take these two scenarios:

1. Woman walking alone in dark alleyway, gets raped. Well, the situation was just too dodgy, what was she doing there alone? Did she not expect trouble? In short, blame is on the victim.

1. Woman on date who then rapes her. Well, what was she wearing? Did she flirt? Did she snog him? Did she lead him on? In short, blame on victim again.

The blame should be put on the rapist and the rapist alone. The situation has nowt to do with it!

Mine was a big friendly lovely chap, who I had known for years, and my friends had known for years, and was popular in our locality (one of those people that everyone knows and thinks well of) and I had gone out with him for about 6 months a couple of years before.

And it was lunchtime and we were sober. In fact he was on his lunch break from work.

Who'd have guessed what was going to happen? I mean you couldn't, there was no way of telling.

Are you going to answer me or just chide me for my language?

In the specific context of rape, which is what we are talking about, what situations are more dangerous than others? I assume you know, since you've referred to them several times now.

I shall say it for the very last time. NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED OR IS TO BLAME. THE RAPIST IS ALWAYS TO BLAME.

Other threads mention staying away from this section and i can see why.

I hate to say it Dittany but i am a bit fatalistic about rape.

I think that if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, and there's not a lot you can do about it.

Avoiding the more obviously dodgy situations - obviously - as I say that stuff applies to everybody. Like your list for example - yes people need to know that stuff. But not all men who rape are like that, and you can't spot them.

So generally I think if it's going to happen it's going to happen, so there's no point in getting too worried or letting it play on your mind or restricting your behaviour. Otherwise the rapists have won without even laying a finger on you.

A bit like "you might get hit by a bus" when you go up the road - you can't let it stop you going up the road.

That's how I've lived, anyway.

DH on the other hand is much more "risk averse" and in his family they were always ferrying the women and girls around in cars at all hours of the day or night to keep them safe.

We have two daughters and it'll be interesting to see what we do when they start going out. I am all for education, I suspect he will don a false moustache and follow them...