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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

asking for it?

318 replies

antoinettechigur · 17/04/2010 18:02

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

OP posts:
dittany · 20/04/2010 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBiscuit · 20/04/2010 21:15

Kinderella - I think that's so true. Several years after my 'real' rape, I went back to a friend's house after a party. There were a load of people sitting around drinking and talking including some quite famous people. I went to the loo and when I came out, one of the famous blokes was waiting to go in (or so I thought). But he sort of pushed me into an empty room, pulled up my skirt and fucked me. I didn't want it but I didn't want to make a big fuss so I just let him. Not exactly rape but I don't think he can possibly have thought I wanted to have sex with him.

I've never told anyone about that before. I am truly ashamed of that experience because I feel I should have shouted out or done something to stop him but I was too drunk and didn't want to make a scene

Molesworth · 20/04/2010 21:23

Bloody hell ladybiscuit

The sense of entitlement these men have is just so shocking (yet unsurprising after reading this thread and realising how bad the reality actually is).

That Jack Tweed case that was linked upthread - the woman didn't say "no", she didn't say anything - so they assume that silence = consent. They assume that she's available for sex by default.

msrisotto · 20/04/2010 21:25

I really believe enthusiastic consent should be obtained before sex. ladybiscuit - that really sounds like rape. I'm so sorry for you. You not fighting back doesn't mean you consented.

antoinettechigur · 20/04/2010 21:29

Ladybiscuit that's horrific.
Easy for me to say, but you shouldn't feel ashamed for not protesting. People who will attack a woman in that way will be careful to pick on someone vulnerable who will find it hard to object, for whatever reason.

It is his fault.

OP posts:
dittany · 20/04/2010 21:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBiscuit · 20/04/2010 21:51

Thank you all. It means more than I can possibly say. I wonder if I hadn't already been raped in similarly dubious circumstances (the first time was by a bloke I was dating who couldn't get home after a date and so stayed at my flat and I woke up to find him inside me) I would have reacted differently. That first time I didn't consider it rape until I told a friend a few days later. But then another friend told me it wasn't rape and that it was my fault for saying he could stay the night (even though I had said clearly that I didn't want to have sex with him before I went to be).

Women are not generally very supportive of other women who get raped by people they know it seems - we are much more comfortable with the 'stranger' rape where things are much more clearcut

dittany · 20/04/2010 22:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BelleDameSansMerci · 20/04/2010 22:37

LadyB

Oh this thread is really so eye-opening. Would be great if one of the bloody nationals would talk about this rather than the usual MN stuff they publish. Can just imagine the slant they'd put on it though.

KinderellaTristabelle · 20/04/2010 22:42

Oh Ladybiscuit I'm so sorry to hear that.

That's awful, and its awful that you have felt responsible in any way.

That other one sounds planned too.

I think we are brainwashed by our culture into not 'seeing' rape when it happens, whether to ourselves or others.

This must have happened to so many people who probably never realised it wasn't their fault.

That 'reasonable belief in consent' part of the legal definition has to be a big problem. I know someone linked to a study on one of these threads showing how young men knew and understood all the cues that meant 'no' when asked how they'd respond to unwanted advances, but that they still chose to pretend to be oblivious to that knowledge when the situation was reversed.

So men do know, but they also know that the received wisdom is that unless a clear 'no' is heard it will be considered ambiguous.

I agree with so much here.

I can't get my head round why someone would want to have sex with someone who isn't enthusiastically consenting. That would be a real turn off for me. Our culture must really hate women for this to be so common.

GardenPath · 21/04/2010 01:37

"Our culture must really hate women for this to be so common."

Ah, Kinder - well done. The first to say it.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 21/04/2010 02:02

The really interesting thing about the Shapely Prose piece (and I'm glad someone linked to that, I had meant to as well, and it warms my cockles to know that lots of people have read it already) is the absolute outrage expressed by some of the male commenters. How dare we exist in a state of fear, how dare we choose to ignore friendly overtures, how dare we approach situations by assuming that every man could be a rapist, because we just don't know.

That's sexist, they say, that's tarring all men with the same brush, you could be missing out on a beautiful friendship, it's demeaning to men to say that they're rapists, etc etc etc.

And yet, this is the same culture that condemns women when we do act friendly, nice, give the man the benefit of the doubt (well he might just chatting to me, he might not have any designs, maybe he genuinely has missed his last bus home) and the man rapes us - well, that's our fault too. We should have been more careful, we shouldn't have been alone with him, what on earth* were we thinking letting him buy us a drink are we mad? Or stupid?

Everything in our culture teaches women to be accommodating, polite, meek, to be nice to men and have sympathy for their social awkwardness, to be quiet, never raise our voices and certainly never show that we have physical strength and power. And yet we're expected to be able to suddenly flip a switch partway through a rape attempt and be able to say NO clearly and repeatedly, to fight physically, to scream.

Can't win for losing, really.

*I originally wrote 'and get raped'. It's so insidious, this passive voice thing that erases the actual rapist.

GardenPath · 21/04/2010 06:10

This was an interesting program. Last broadcast yesterday, 11:30 on BBC Radio 4:

'Madwomen in the Attic' will consider bedside analysis from afar for the mad, bad and sad heroines of classic fiction through the eyes of modern medicine and psychiatry. '... including the first Mrs Rochester in 'Jane Eyre', Lady Glyde in Wilkie Collins' 'A Woman in White' and the (undoubtedly maddening) Emma Bovary in 'Madame Bovary'"

Also includes the case of Rosina Bulwer Lytton, novelist, essayist and satirist, daughter of the early feminist Anna Wheeler, ?...for a modern audience, it seems barely credible that a fortune-seeking husband could get away with having his sane wife certified and locked up in an asylum...? but Edward Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton had his wife carted off to Brentford asylum in 1858 because she was an embarrassment to his political career.

To quote the presenter, Vivienne Parry "...women that refused to conform were the ones that got locked up, by men, in attics or whatever other spaces were available..."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00s0cn3

While this isn't about rape per se, it is about control of women, by men.
The deeper societal psyche of rape is all about control, by men, of women. When a woman is raped outside her own home, it?s a punishment; she, and all other women, is being told, in no uncertain terms, she has no right to be out, in the public men's sphere - her proper place is at home, shut away, ?contained?. Preferably under the ownership of a man. It's a warning. This is our domain, if you enter it, this is what you'll get. If you're raped you've ?asked for it'. Our own society, and even posts here, tells us this - we must watch where we go, who we're with, what we wear, how we behave and even what time of day we are permitted to be abroad in safety. No such ?advice? is given to men. Nobody says to men, ?because of your sex, you must curtail your freedom if you don?t want something nasty to happen to you?.

While anyone may be mugged in a dark alley, only women face the threat of attack simply for being women. And not often is it for fear of a woman that we avoid that dark alley. While we can leave our mobiles and laptops at home, we can hardly leave our vagina's.

The attitude, to rape, rapists and the raped, of our patriarchal society is clearly telling us something.

The 'advice' we get as women, to 'avoid rape', as has been discussed, (don't walk alone at night etc), is myth, but that's not its point, the point is to generate fear of the outside world so that we stay home, where we can be ?contained?. (Where we?re likely to get raped, statistically, more often ? so it?s not to avoid rape, then). The moment it?s uttered and the very fact that this ?advice? exists, and is widely promulgated, is a gift and an immediate ?get out clause? for men who rape, or who pressurise women for sex, and for society to take rape seriously. It?s an ?I told you so?. Which shifts blame onto the raped ? if only they?d heeded the warning, it wouldn?t have ?happened? to them. ?You know what men are like?; ?boys will be boys?.
I would hope that any modern, thinking man would be as incensed by the implications of this for him as I am incensed by the implications for women. Unfortunately, sadly and horrifyingly, given the statistics, I cannot afford to give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, when you consider that had our forebears, women and some men, not fought for the rights we have today, such as they are, we would still be owned by our husbands as chattel wives, as we were; we would still be required to ?submit? to our husbands sexual needs and there would still be no such thing as rape within marriage. We would still be having fourteen children if we hadn?t fought for contraception within marriage, we would still have no property rights and any property we may have owned would automatically have passed to our husband on marriage for him to dispose of as he may, as they did; our husbands would still automatically have the right to take our children away from us in event of divorce or separation, as they did; we would still be deprived of an education and we would still not have the vote. This is a very short list but the patriarchy fought tooth and nail against all this which surely gives some idea of what men think of women.

This is what our society, deep down and from deep historical roots, thinks should be the lot of women, and, as said in the program ?'Madwomen in the Attic?, I linked to earlier, "...women that refused to ?conform? were the ones that got locked up, by men, in attics.? Or raped.

We would still be under a Talibanesque regime, as many women still are, ruled by men, with our freedom of movement, freedom of speech and freedom of any choice over our own lives virtually non-existent. You don?t have to look too far back in history and not too far afield today to see how men, the Patriarchy, did, will and do treat us if they can. And as I said, still would in our society but that the freedoms we women enjoy today were clawed, scratched, and died for against people, men, the Patriarchy, who fought just as bitterly to deny us. What was wrong with them? To quote the anti-slavery slogan (?Am I not a Man and a Brother??) - ?Am I not a Woman and a Sister??

Look at it. The origins of this are rooted way back and a subject for a whole Mumsnet thread of its own.
Rape has been used by men against women throughout the ages, either as personal control in the domestic sphere as a ?right? (and it was argued, regarding rape within marriage, that when a woman said ?I do? at the altar, that was thereafter consent) or systematically as a weapon of war, as in the Congo, right now. I found so many links to rape in Haiti - even after a national disaster, the first thing some men think of is raping the women.

www.blackamericaweb.com/?q=articles/news/moving_america_news/17150

When Dittany says ?...that women are in a constant state of consent?, she is right; men consider women in a constant state of consent, as a default condition, but in the domestic sphere, ?by right?, this means the husband, though we are silent, as posts on this thread testify, about the father, the brother, the uncle, the cousin, the ?friend of the family?, the Priest.

If she dare venture to the outside world, to work, to play, to dare to be independent, she opens herself up to all, she is sexual ?fair game?.

It would be interesting to see what the premium would be to insure against rape. Or would this be classed as ?Natural Disaster? - ?Act of God??

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:19

GardenPath - if you're not writing for a profession, you should be. What a fantastic post.

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:20

And, while I'm feeling outraged, I'm a bit disappointed that this topic hasn't made it onto "Discussions of the Day"...

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 21/04/2010 07:34

"The 'advice' we get as women, to 'avoid rape', as has been discussed, (don't walk alone at night etc), is myth, but that's not its point, the point is to generate fear of the outside world so that we stay home, where we can be ?contained?".

Precisely, and this is where the disconnect happens between the wellmeaning women who ask, but what's the harm in giving women personal safety tips, and those of us arguing that they are worse than useless, they are harmful.

I agree, BDSM, I think this thread has been great for a number of reasons. I'm tempted to start a follow up about victim behaviours, after realising that no-one knows what is actually typical behaviour after the rape happens. Clearly we are all too fixated on victim behaviour before the rape and that's all.

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 07:41

I know this is probably really stupid and just proves that I've been as conditioned as anyone else but I am determined that DD (2.7) will be doing karate rather than ballet once she's old enough. I doubt it'd actually help her much in a dangerous situation but I want her to have every physical chance of protecting herself. How dreadful is it that I believe this to be a reasonable perspective to try to keep my daughter safe?

KinderellaTristabelle · 21/04/2010 08:28

Tortoise that is so true about the impossible social expectations.

That thread on victim behaviour is probably a good idea.

Well said garden path. Thats a great point (among many) about insurance and rape as a natural disaster. I nearly spat out my cereal. So true.

Agree BDSM.

Also the karate thing might be a good confidence/assertiveness booster in terms of her ability to say 'no' to unwanted advances as well as the physical benefits.

LadyBiscuit · 21/04/2010 08:32

This thread has made me rethink that second incident for which I am very grateful (if a little uncomfortable). Thank you again

GardenPath - agree with your excellent post wholeheartedly.

BelleDame - you could look at it that way or you could instead say that you want her to learn that her body is powerful and strong rather than dainty and fragile (while her feet bleed but no one ever sees that). I'd be encouraging my DDs too if I had them.

Molesworth · 21/04/2010 10:25

BDSM I'm also feeling irritated that this thread hasn't made discussions of the day

phokoje · 21/04/2010 10:49

yes, and 'women cause quakes' has.............

BelleDameSansMerci · 21/04/2010 11:08

Perhaps we're a little too controversial? I wish, though, that more people would read this entire thread. It's changed my perspective in some ways and also helped me to better understand myself. It's also opened my eyes to how widespread this really is.

blackcurrants · 21/04/2010 11:59

I sometimes think that if women talked to each other the way that people have talked to each other on this thread - if they really shared their experiences and really listened to each other - there would be a revolution.

No, I know, it sounds barmy. But I'm serious. WHY should women be considered to be in a state of permanent consent? WHY should women be given harmful rape prevention advice? and WHY on earth, when we say, "Hey, Men can stop rape" is it a terrible, horrible, controversial thing to say?

I am always amazed by the amount of women who say they won't call themselves a feminist because "feminists are angry." I always think: Gods, if you're not angry, you're not paying attention!

This is an awesome thread.

Lutyens · 21/04/2010 13:10

I am also a bit disappointed that the thread hasn't made "discussions of the day" as so many people have opened their hearts to try disprove the theory that a victim's behaviour "causes" rape.

I am equally disappointed that the "women must know personal safety rules" brigade also appear to have left the thread. I would be more heartened if we could penetrate through that argument and make at least one person realise how very dangerous that way of thinking is

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 21/04/2010 13:15

Lutyens, I normally don't put a lot of energy into disproving those attitudes because it is frustrating to feel that the people you're talking to just blank you.

But I learned a lot of what I know, including how to argue it effectively myself (which I do think I'm pretty good at now), by watching these conversations unfold in the comments of well moderated bogs and the like.

So now I feel, even if the person with whom I'm engaging doesn't take anything away from it, maybe someone else will? And that is what seems to be happening on this thread - lurkers are coming out saying that someone's post has really resonated with them. So it's good.