asking for it?

[antoinettechigur]

Just been thinking about this turn of phrase and wondering what it really can mean.

Follows on from lots of lunchtable discussion at work of a current rather high profile case in which some men are being accused of raping one of a group of women who were at their house after nightclubbing (just keeping it a tiny bit vague as trial not over yet. Most of my colleagues were analysing the woman's reported behaviour and discussing whether she had "asked for it" by getting into a vulnerable situation. When I asked "what, she wanted to be raped?" the responses were along the lines of "Oh of course not, but you know...". Nothing very specific. Another colleague joined me in the suggestion of questioning why these discussions/reports always focus on the woman's behaviour, not the man/men's in the situation.

So what does it all mean? What do people mean when they say a woman was "asking for it"?

Well, thought I better start a thread as I always turn up late to the interesting discussions these days

I think this experience of mine (which didn't so much upset me as infuriate me) is illustrative of how bizarre some men are. Walking in London (just off Regent Street) daringly on my own in broad daylight. I'm wearing a dress (knee length), long jacket and low heeled shoes. A man walking in the opposite direction put his hand inside my jacket and grabbed my left breast. I grabbed his arm and slapped him hard (repeatedly) around the head (he was similar height to me). He then ran off...

Two things to consider with this - firstly, what the fuck was that about anyway? And, secondly, what if he'd had a knife? I'm still glad I hit him though - tosser.

blimey, belle

I reckon he must have been mentally unwell to be so open about it

You were lucky it didn't escalate, tbh

Because unfortunately, passers-by may not have come to your aid...

Oh i had one of those in Regent Street, I suspect it's a favourite haunt of these pervs because it's just round the corner from Soho so they've wandered out by mistake. He grabbed my arse and I chased him. Have no idea what I would have done if I'd caught him (visions of DelBoy and Rodney chasing after those those thieves and then catching up with them and having to run away...) I chased after him yelling "catch that man, he's stolen something!" and when passers by asked me what he'd taken, I realised that I had no idea what to say - him pinching my arse struck me as being something they would find perfectly acceptable and not a good reason to create a hue and cry.

This is making me think of Philip Zimbardo and his Stanford Prison Experiment and also Christopher Browning's book "Ordinary Men". If the circumstances are right ('right' being a poor choice of word here, sorry), perfectly ordinary people can and will do evil things.

Oh AF, I know... I had a man chase a friend and me (two of us risking our safety by buying some chips in a small Suffolk town after 9pm) with a knife. He and a friend had been suggesting we might like to "service" them in their pick-up. I told them to "Fuck off", as you would, and the passenger leapt out and ran after us. My friend was a faster runner than me and I could hear the man catching up with me so I stopped and turned round. My mad reasoning being that he would be less likely to stab me if he had to look me in the face. At that moment, thank God, someone I knew drove up in his car, rushed out, chased the man off and took my friend and I to the police station. Despite giving statements and providing the registration number of the pick-up, I never heard another thing.

Again, this was a long time ago - more than 20 years ago. I hope the police would take it more seriously now.

HerBeatitude - bloody well done. I know we're taking risks by reacting so strongly but why the fuck should they get away with it?

I've had a man grope my breast coming up to a crowded zebra crossing - people saw. A business man looked at me, and I at him in shock after it happened. No one stopped, everyone carried on walking. I was gob smacked and if he hadn't been 6 foot 5 at least and with a friend, I like to think I would have done something but I didn't and I hate myself for it (despite knowing I have no reason to!). I should kicked him in the nuts repeatedly.

Anyway, I don't think a man has to be mentally unwell to grope a woman in public.

I'm practically shaking reading this. I've been assaulted/raped umpteen times. From age 15 doing my paper round in DMs by a 12 y/o who offered to pay me for a blow job to rapes by my then bf in my late teens (I think it was punishment for miscarrying)to date rape by a guy I knew (a friend of a friend).

I've namechanged because I'm still terrified that I will met my ex-bf again (I stayed with him for years after the rapes stopped [sexual assaults still happened though]). I 'see' him everywhere - barely a day goes by that I don't think I have seen him. Any man with shaved dark hair freaks me out.

At the time though I was convinced it was all my fault and I deserved it. He even blamed me for him getting 'involved' in a S&M scene with a 14 y/o whilst on holiday (we couldn't afford for both of us to go so he went with out me) as I had denied him sex at the time (I wasn't even on the same continent). He was upset that he hadn't been able hurt her like she apparently wanted him too. The fact that he didn't care that I cried during sex and bled after due to how rough he was didn't seem to bother him.

Sorry for dumping this into the convo. I just needed to get this off my chest about the 'she was asking for it' thing. I was asking for it as I was asleep in his (and later on my/our own) bed. My DH (who is very lovely and would never do anything to hurt me) isn't allowed to even kiss or touch me non-sexually in my sleep.

namechange

Oh namechange, that's so heartbreakingly sad.

HerBeatitiude: this is the full link, so if it doesn't work you can paste it kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-gu ide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

It's sodding brilliant. So's the comment discussion, though it will eat up 2 hours of your life, at least. They have good mods over there at Shapely Prose, they really do.

I'm so sorry namechange

So many sad stories on here
and that news link was the one I was talking aboutin OP.

I wanted to share a story, and hope it doesn't sound too glib following on from some of the others.

When I was younger and relatively inexperienced (I had just come out of my first sexual relationship) the following happened:

I went on a date with a guy I had met out clubbing. Call him M. We got on well, were snogging in the pub and club we went to. M missed his train home. I told him he could stay at mine. We snogged some more, got into bed in our underwear. Things were getting heated, we both knew sex was on the cards. And then I thought "no", "I'm not up for this, I don't fancy you as much as I thought and I'm not ready for someone new". At this point I had my underwear off and M was on top of me in his boxers. I said to him something to the effect "I don't feel like it now". He kept kissing me and said "come on, come on". I said no. And then he got up, said "ok have it your way" or something and awkwardly I got him a blanket and he slept on the sofa.

Do I regret going to bed with someone in that way when I was young and unsure? Yes

But I know the responsibility, the choice was with M. He made the right choice, not to rape me. Even though he could have "got away with it". We both must have known that, in the moment.

Not sure of the point of this, but it feels important to me. Maybe the point that rape is a choice, not the result of "risky" behaviour by a woman or of a man's "uncontrollable" urges.

Every time my dad babysits his grandaughters, or my DP is alone with me, or I have a 1-1 meeting with a male colleague they subconsciusly (or consciously?) choose not to rape.

There's another side of the coin but don't think I'll go there today.

Thanks Lutyens, Blackcurrants & Molesworth. TBH it has shocked me that people would even comment on my experience, let alone express sympathy over it. It's been 8 years since I was last raped and 6 years since I was last assaulted.

The last time I was assaulted I had had a stupid row with then bf (now DH)and stomped out to cool off. I had just got out of our flat and turned the corner when a man of 18-21 appeared and exposed himself, then made a grab for me. I tried to run and just fell on the floor, likely he then ran off. I reported this to the police with DH's support but nothing ever came of it.

I had always told myself that I would run if a stranger tried anything but I found myself literally paralysed by fear rather than being paralysed by not wanting to be rude.

After my date rape I thought I should have just said 'If you carry on with this, you will be raping me' I couldn't say this as I had invited him back to mine. Afterwards I walked him back to the train station. I even ended up seeing him for a while. I could never be his girlfriend though as I was too easy . That's right, he managed to rape me and that made me too slutty to be his girlfriend and I saw him again. How much of a glutton for punishment was I?

I am terrified that my daughters will learn of my behaviour and find me wanting.

I have no idea how to raise the issue with them. Luckily they are very young so even my eldest isn't aware of sex yet.

Namechange, a LOT of women date their attackers after the fact. It's a way to take control back (if I'm seeing him, it can't have been rape) and process what's happened.

A lot of rape victims also go through a promiscuous period after the attack, again probably as a way to try and feel in control of one's body again. I did, and I hated myself for it, and I still remember the relief I felt when I learned it was normal behaviour. I'd thought I must be the most awful, callous, slutty person ever, to have been raped and yet then gone on to sleep around.

Oh gosh tortoise - that sounds horribly familiar. I spent a few weeks not even being able to get on the bus because I couldn't bear to have anyone that physically close to me but then I too became very promiscuous. I now have the ability to have sex with men and not become at all emotionally involved. While that can be convenient at times, I do wonder if being raped has meant that part of me has shut down - it's certainly cocked up most of my long term relationships since

So many sad stories here - I wonder what the real percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted or raped is? I am determined to talk about what happened to me because even though I do feel ashamed of what happened, it allows me to have some power back. I also want my male friends to know that it's happened to me - that this isn't something removed and that you read about in the papers - it's their friends and family who have been victims

I was once told that if I were ever to be attacked or assaulted I should shout 'fire!', rather than 'rape!' as people are more likely to respond to the former. Telling isn't it?

BDSM that is just really horrible. What a disgusting pair. I really really hope they get convicted and a decent sentence. That poor bloody kid, of course she couldn't do anything with the two of them there and no escape route. I hope she has a lot of support.

I really think that men should be taught that it's not just about the woman "not saying no" but about them saying and obviously meaning "yes please". Forcing yourself on someone obviously having no choice in the matter is quite clearly rape, and I suspect that they both know that perfectly well. Their surprise I expect is that she reported them and that she was taken seriously by the police.

namechange, I'm so sorry You must be an exceptional woman to have come through all that without crumbling (even if it must have felt like you were at times).

I wonder how much of the rapes and assaults are aided by that stupid crap about when a woman says "Yes, she means yes. Maybe, she means yes. No, she means yes." or however it goes? I don't think it's heard as often these days (at least I hope not) but it was certainly still around while I was a teenager (1980s).

So sorry to hear of your experiences, Lutyens and namechange.

Thanks for those links blackcurrants. They are so spot on. That's really important information.

Jesus tortoise, I never heard of that before. That explains a lot for me personally. Sorry to hear that ladybiscuit.

This thread has raised a lot of issues for me as I'm sure it has for a lot of people.

There is something else I'd like to add, but I need to think about first. I've had a lot of experiences which were probably assault or rape and never realised until just now. (In addition to those I did know about. ) Or maybe they weren't? I need to think about this, but I will come back.

A really, really important thread.

Tortoise - that would explain a lot for me too. I had a one nighter with a sort friend not long after I split up with bf. It was the first time I had sex without pain. I then went through a number of partners . Looking back it wasn't fantastic sex but it didn't HURT - it was a revelation. Even though doggy hurt the most, I would 'choose' to do it that way so I could scream & cry into the pillows and not put ex-bf off his stroke.

Luckily DH is incredibly sensitive to my needs re. consent/pain during sex and will always check that I am ok with whatever we do.

The only serious row we have had was at the beginning of our relationship. I was drunk and went along with DH even though I didn't want to. We stopped half way through as I started to cry. He was so upset I had treated him as though he was ex-bf and had thought him capable of forcing me to have sex. I had always capitulated with ex-bf as I was worried if I refused he would just assualt me in my sleep. Not that stopped him but I did what I could to minimise the risk of it.

This tread is very cathartic for me. Sorry if I'm derailing a very valid and necessary thread.

Itsmynamechange {hugs}

I as raped by a boyfriend once that was enough to mess me up for years I think (and groped by someone when I was never been kissed 16 year old, actually I think that did more dmaage but I was spectacularly naive)

I think you are doing really well to have moved forwards at all, you should be rpud ofn yourself. Well done.

namechange I don't think anyone would consider you releasing stuff on here as derailing. I hope you'll find nothing but care, support and, where we can, help here. I don't think anyone who has a heart could possibly not want to help you.

I had a rather nasty experience when I was nine years old (thank you paternal grandfather - may you rot in hell) and I suspect that my erstwhile somewhat promiscuous nature is largely as a result of this. I didn't realise it was a known effect. I feel a lot better knowing that...

BDSM, Clarissimo, Kinderella, everyone - so sad - and angry - for you

I am going to read the Shapely Prose piece posted upthread. Also been reading this excellent post from Melissa McEwan at Shakesville: Rape Culture 101

That is another great link Molesworth, thank you.

That 'paralysed by not wanting to be rude' thing. That really makes me think. There are numerous situations where I and others I know have had sex because it would have been 'unacceptable' not to somehow, given how 'events' had unfolded. 'Events' I now realise, deftly manipulated to get us in just that situation where we would be too 'well conditioned' to behave be able to get out of. I would never have considered these assaults of any kind until now.

I'm now wondering how the legal definition of rape affects our understanding of what actually constitutes rape. Clearly those type of situations would not conform to the legal definition of rape, yet many would be so coercive as to be morally rape, in my mind at least. And yet I'm only starting to think this after reading this thread (and blackcurrants' links) and thinking about it.

I would never have felt that the men who orchestrated these situations were to blame to anywhere near that extent, but I've realised that they target vulnerable individuals and coerce them deliberately. (Although of course our society has taught them that that's what women are for.)

I wonder if the legal definition of rape actually reduces our perception of rape in that its only a very limited range of circumstances that rape can be deemed to occur. Not just the obvious bias against women in the courtroom and with stereotypes, but in a more insidious way, that the definition is also blind to the societal context and required behaviours that make up women's lived experiences IYSWIM.

So that coercion into sex isn't a crime even when you have no choice and we are blind to the power differential involved in so many of these situations. Its like the definition is so narrow so as to exclude all types of coercive behaviour from the definition (as well the more obvious problem that it excludes most overtly threat/violent rapes in practice.)

It is like the definition of rape has been designed to allow men sexual access to women when women are not willing.

I suppose that's a rape culture.