How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

[Molesworth]

I've just been reading this article from the guardian. Young girls are being sold to brothel keepers and made to take steroids so that they look older than they really are.

All my instincts say that the sex industry is just plain wrong. I know some feminists think it's OK (although obviously they wouldn't support practices like those described in the article). Are there any sex industry supporting feminists here? What's the rationale?

"Debating it as a moral issue just ties us all up in knots. Maybe it would be easier to work this out if we thought of it as a labour issue, rather than a feminist issue."

It's not possible to put ethics to one side if you believe that the commodification of women's bodies is inherently damaging to all women and a key factor in perpetuating gender inequality. I really can't see how this can not be a feminist issue, although that's not to say that it can't be a labour issue as well. I can see that there's a pragmatic argument to be made for legalisation in order to protect sex workers, but the bigger problem won't go away while women's bodies continue to be seen as fucktoys.

A distinction that is not always made is that while a woman who is working in the sex industry against her will is being 'bought and sold' just like a trafficked domestic worker or agricultural labourer or any other trafficking victim who owes a huge debt to people traffickers and is working illegally in unsafe conditions, whether that's selling sex, making clothes in a locked building with no fire escape or flogging bootleg DVDs door to door and getting beaten up for not selling enough, whereas a woman who has chosen to do it is not selling her self but her time and labour. Just like in any other job. To quite a lot of people, sex simply isn't that big a deal, so engaging in it for money with people who are clean and polite and non-violent might not be the greatest fun in the world but is less unpleasant and better paid than (for instance) cleaning up excrement and vomit for the minimum wage in a badly-run care home.

It's also true that there are plenty of men selling sex - admittedly mostly to other men - and some of these men are victims of abuse and exploitation, while others are content with a line of work they have chosen to do.

I do think that there should be better protection for sex workers, unionisation etc, and less stigmatisation of them. Because when you take the abuse/exploitation of the unwilling out of the picture, exchanging money for sexual acts is no more wrong than exchanging money for other physical or psychological services: you pay a manicurist/chef/therapist/ to give you what you want, indulge your whims whether the individual likes you or thinks you are a complete PITA.

Yes but please address my point about the conflict within feminism here: "My right to do what I want with my body" versus "our duty to protect other women against abuse".

Telling Mantamumu what she can and can't do with her body, is not consistent with feminism. Equally, making light of the abuses of women by the sex industry is also not a consistent feminist position.

We could (and probably will) debate this 24 hours a day for the next 3 months but we will not be able to square this circle. Hence my suggestion of an alternative ethical framework with which to discuss it ...

Are we restricting this discussion to 'the sex industry' in terms of exchanging money for sexual contact, or are we going to encompass porn performers, writers of porn, phone/text sex workers, promoters of swinging clubs and producers/sellers of sex toys and fetish clothing/toys?

There's no conflict boobmeister (great name btw). The question is 'can you support the sex industry and be a feminist?' Women can do what they like with their bodies. But if those actions contribute to the subordination of women in society then they aren't feminist actions. Doesn't mean we can't support vulnerable women who are a part of the industry.

For instance (bear with my clunky analogy), my right to drive a car doesn't extend to the right to drive it too fast. There are limits to freedom in every action. If I was being forced to break the speed limit through fear or hunger or slavery I should be helped to escape that situation. Voluntarily participating in dangerous driving however is not a right.

WRT porn, fetishism etc. This is going to sound very black and white but intentionally so. Personally SGB I see it all as part of a cultual sexual dysfunction that results from the oppression of women, and the consequent demonisation of women and the repression of sex. So, yes I think the entire sex industry harms women, and is symptomatic of the harm that already exists for women. Vicious circle.

I am bound to get flamed for that but it's my personal view so shoot me!

Currently there is no actual legal gender bias towards purchasing sexual services. Not all clients are men although the majority are ? not all sex workers are female which also skewers the neat narrow minded warped propaganda of Bindel and her storm troopers. I repeat so where do people get off trying to gag me and decide for me and my colleagues if I can offer my services to a client who clearly respects the parameters of my business setup? I am not trying to push the Belle de Jour myth ? I am 41 and not a supermodel albeit attractive to many gents. There is no set type of either whore or punter ? there is a myriad of different service providers and those seeking our services. I would like an answer so as to why people like Dittany and the OP feel they have a right to impose their ill informed opinions and limited experience on to others when the law quite clearly makes what I do a perfectly legitimate profession and paying tax? What gives you the right to decide what we can legally sell/offer? What impact does it actually have on you? I don?t want some wishy washy polemics but a clear answer!

And again where does my chosen work impact on other ladies? I am in a better position than my peers in many industries as I hold a number of high qualifications. Again this is a matter of economics and sometimes simply down to differing aspirations. I studied and worked hard to further my education hence I hold no responsibility for any woman who may not be able to get a well paid job. Again that is an issue for society at large. So it is a rather cheap shot to try and make the situation of other sex workers my responsibility. I show as much concern for fellow sex workers as to any group in society. I could say shame on anyone on here including the OP for doing so little about social injustice in society at large. Shame on you Dittany back for not preventing the plight of pimped sex slaves ? we share the same level of responsibility.

Dittany and the OP you are entitled to your narrow and bigoted views dressed as neo feminist issue. To be honest the views spouted here could so easily be from ultra conservative religious or other dogmatic groups. However, you are not entitled or in any way empowered to enforce those personal views on to society and especially me and fellow sex workers. There are quite a number of male sex workers and transgender escorts. The majority of clients are male ? this is not necessarily an issue of power. There are enough guys who try to work in our profession and falter for lack of demand. You may wonder why ? simply because a lot of women are far more pragmatic and seek different forms of gratification. As for patriarchal societies being the only society to foster prostitution that is woefully ignorant of the actual history of sex for reward. Womankind long time ago placed a value on sex ? it has been bartered for in so many ways often too subtle to even label it as prostitution. Sexual freedom is empowerment and all too often the label whore has been attached to women who refused to be the little woman caged behind the cooker. Men especially and a lot women have a real problem with sexually active women and try and curtail this predatory sexual female energy by putting the scarlet harlot letter on us. I have reached my sexual peak and confidence but am by choice single now after a very long and reasonably happy relationship. I could join the ranks of many other adults who join various dating agencies. Strangely enough the ladies who have gone down that path tend to complain bitterly of being treated with little respect with men who are not really addressing their sexual needs. The biggest problem a lot of anti prostitution lobbyists have is the concept that sex workers actually enjoy quite a lot of the sex. This does not compute with the exploitative argument. However, we may occasionally have crap sex ? I daresay so do many women at some time or other. I would also honestly like to know who in their life has never in some way used sex to either control a relationship, placate, fulfil other needs and had intercourse without climaxing simply because it fostered a feeling of closeness in a relationship. I know loads of women who never climax, especially not by direct intercourse. Is this then a constant state of being exploited and subjugated? I earned a few hundred pounds earlier today and the majority of the appointment was spend being orally pleasured by a charming witty guy who quite frankly most of us would have dated in real life. Yesterday I was feeling lazy and nearly did not want to go through with an appointment just like a lazy day we might have in other jobs. Eventually, I got dressed up and went to my working boudoir. The guy was nice and paid for 90 minutes leaving after 35 minutes including showering because I knackered him out. Please seriously explain to me a 41 year old highly educated woman where exactly I have been exploited by getting £250 for so little input (and I mean this literally!)?

Please do not resort to tired phrases - give some real original and valid arguments!

"working boudoir"

"please do not resort to tired phrases"

< snort >

straight from the pages of the tiredest of tired bodice-rippers

I will try not to use any 'tired phrases'. MissHoneyMoon in marketing and selling yourself as a fuckhole you are contributing to the perception in our society that women are fuckholes hich men can buy or steal. This affects the thousands of other women who do not get to live the idealised dream of prostitution you describe. And it also affects all other women. I've worked with quite a few men who see prostitutes. I hear their violence fantasies, their disgust for the woman and in some cases their deep shame at their actions. Please stop pretending that you speak for the majority of women who sell sex.

Sorry but especially Dittany sounds like a little Bindel automated drone. You offer no actual valid argument as to where prostitution harms women, i.e. me.

SolidGoldBrass eloquently summed up the process of paying for a service.

For example, looking at any service industry, a manicurist might inhale fumes all day, have a bad back and earn a fairly crap wage. I see many ladies do long shifts ? dealing with pretty impolite customers. Maybe their education, original ethnic background limited their employment opportunities. Some ladies work under much better conditions in a lovely environment with better facilities. The latter group however does not hold any blame nor should it have to feel guilty about its better fortune. It is an issue for society overall to address education and global economic conditions. To me fairer rates for sex across the world are en par with any Fair Trade initiative. We take responsibility for our consumer choices every day; it starts with our tea or coffee. Where do you draw the line?

I also strongly resent the vilification and attack on those who are my clients. The real problem a lot of vociferous anti prostitution campaigners have is a puritanical and rather narrow minded view on sex. The same arguments incidentally have often been applied to pornography in general. I do think that there are social injustices in that industry too. However, the most basic flaw people like Andrea Dworking and others face is the mere fact that a lot of women are as turned on by porn as men. They may not like the same films and fact is there are a lot of female producers and directors who actually cater for a thriving female buyer ship of porn. Women have tried to book me but I am not sexually attracted and thus have my own boundaries. I decline bookings from female customers. I also decline a lot of booking requests by men if I do not like the sound of them or their attitude. Sadly, I could not do the same in other industries in past jobs!

MissHoneymoon if you did a bit more reading and a bit less writing you might understand the argument.

I have to say, I have no idea whether you are a 'lady' or a client MHM. But you're quite wrong about us being puritanical automatons. We can even say cunnilingus and (shock) bedroom. Who says 'orally pleasured' and boudoir' nowadays? Mr Heffner? Is it you?

Didn't you already use the "You're a punter" argument, dittany?

Perhaps MissHoneyMoon's first language (out of the four she claims to speak) is not English, but something a little more florid?

I'm intrigued to know what Andrea Dworking has to say on the matter. Enlighten us MHM.

Sorry, dittany, was away reading elsewhere. However, the "you're a punter/hairy handed trucker called Dave" thing does appear distressingly often in your discussions. Why is this, do you know?

(I won't speculate.)

It just seems rather weak, as an argument, y'know.