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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

462 replies

Molesworth · 05/04/2010 15:33

I've just been reading this article from the guardian. Young girls are being sold to brothel keepers and made to take steroids so that they look older than they really are.

All my instincts say that the sex industry is just plain wrong. I know some feminists think it's OK (although obviously they wouldn't support practices like those described in the article). Are there any sex industry supporting feminists here? What's the rationale?

OP posts:
OldLadyKnowsNothing · 06/04/2010 01:49

MRA?

blinder · 06/04/2010 01:50

Oh wait hang on. She has chosen a username that starts with the prefix Miss. She must be a lady. Sorry MissHoneyMoon.

It's weird because on this predominately female site almost no-one bothers to put Miss in front of their name. Maybe because we just think of ourselves as people rather than as ladies.

I must change my name to MissBlinder as soon as I can .

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 06/04/2010 01:55

Why do you find it so hard to believe that these women really do exist? Why the "Dave" slander every time?

blinder · 06/04/2010 01:59

She may be a woman but if she is a woman she sounds very much like a man trying to sound like a woman. Read her posts. There is a distinct 'readers wives' feel to the whole thing. Why did the other one jump in with 'i can assure you she's female'? Do they know each other? If so, why are they here exactly?

blinder · 06/04/2010 02:06

Anyway I'm about to retire to my boudoir before another mammoth post arrives extolling the joys of intimate knowledge for a fee.

This would be funny if it weren't for all the real prostitutes getting beaten, drugged and raped as we type. The children, the refugees, the runaways who were trying to escape abuse, the trafficked women and the abductees aren't being pleasured for thousands of pounds right now. And all the women getting beaten and raped by men who normally pay for it but tonight can't be bothered to pay. Goodnight all.

MissHoneyMoon · 06/04/2010 02:20

Ooooh the claws are coming out. I have a feeling that some of the now polemic insults and clichés bundied around might stem from a general unease and hatred towards the ?whore?. How come when you cannot use clear arguments and are incapable of actually substantiating your spurious claims you resort to insults? It isn?t the men who show disrespect to women and their sexual organs but some of you supposed feminist women are truly aggressive and offensive towards sex workers. Is this how your brand of feminism works? If you cannot convince/shout me down you will label me with gratuitous insults? Shame that me aka Fuckhole can actually continue with a reasoned debate without the insults.

I have a property in Notting Hill which actually for a better word is a ?boudoir?. Like many self employed people I like to have a separate work place. I could coyly call it an office but it actually is a boudoir.

Again I speak for me and echo the thoughts of likeminded colleagues who have discussed this thread on an industry forum ? please in turn those do the same ? speak for yourselves and try and stop to speak for and on behalf of sex workers. The problem really a lot of people outside of the industry have is that we reserve the right to actually have a free will and choice. You are clearly demonstrating that you want to deny me that clear choice and free will.

Thousands of women encounter different forms of paid sex works but thousands work in a very similar way to me. Some ladies prefer to work for an agency or parlour. They may pay a fee etc but then they do not have the overheads I have. We all tend to opt for what suits us most. And then some women work at the top of their profession some have poorly paid jobs. Again that is sadly part of an ongoing social injustice that affects women and men across the world.

As for men degrading women ? again that sadly is an aspect of society that does not actually exist because of prostitution or as part of it. By actually not labelling and degrading the sexual needs of my clients you might stop from perpetuating the mutual disrespect. Any of you may encounter sexually aggressive and disrespectful men; I do not as part of my work. I have some clear parameters and dos and don?ts for any appointment and will not offer my services to those that do not respect my working methods.

So if you some of you are trying to make me responsible for the attitude of society then please extend some simple courtesy and respect to all women. Stop the hypocrisy, insults and actually try and offer a real argument instead of polemics and continuing simplistic propaganda. Some sex workers do not do well, some workers in poorly paid stressful jobs falter and suffer from burnout. There can be great harm to health and society in most industries if they have an unfair pay structure and as long there is a massive socially disadvantaged group. The reasons for exploitation, including the sex industry are not as simplistic as many of you try to portray and includes issues of class, education and so on. Sex at street level exists not because of escorts like us on the other end of the spectrum but because there are men with lower incomes. Many students right now use escorting to pay for their degrees. Shame that the current government includes a lot of female politicians who have had the possibility to study for free with a full grant ? yet have contributed to increasing two tier system of those that can afford education and those that cannot.

Again to reiterate unlike a few of you, I speak for myself ? all I ask is for some basic courtesy and too kindly desist from trying to speak for women like me. I am impressed by a number of intelligent and interesting members on this forum but unfortunately there are the judgemental types that try and dress up their ignorance and hatred of prostitutes as actually trying to save them. The hypocrisy of some of the women trying to argue for some form of sanitised sisterhood is rather startling. Every time so far anyone working as a prostitute is trying to enter a debate with those not in the industry ? it seems to sooner or later turn into a slanging match with insults against the whore/fuck hole. Sorry but this does not look like respect or indeed true genuine concern for any of us.

As for using Miss it is close to one of my working names. To be honest the point is not whether I am female, a sex worker or anything else. It actually is about not receiving any real argument about some points you claimed. And I am not English ? it wasn?t even my second or third language. However, I think I am fluent enough to argue my case without cheap primitive insults. Sadly, this does not seem to be the case for a few native speakers. Ironically, quite a few members here happen to post on a whore board as people do not stop being women, parents etc. I think the biggest issue some people including the most vociferous and insulting here have is that far from the little oppressed dumb women you seem to want to save from ourselves and sexual exploitation; you are faced with those who can actually articulate clearly reasoned intelligent points in stark contrast to some of the posts.

Anyway, thanks to those that had some great points. The rest are sadly as I imagined the bigoted Bindel clones to be. She too tries to shout down or insult us if try to speak for ourselves.

dittany · 06/04/2010 09:22

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany · 06/04/2010 09:34

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sakura · 06/04/2010 09:45

MissHoneyMoon,
there is no general unease and hatred of women like dittany towards the "whore" because women like dittany do not categorise other women as whores. We see prostitutes as our daughters, our sisters, our selves. They are women as are we. YOu'd have to be a very strange type of woman to think that vulnerable women, poor women and in most cases abused women are whores. I, rightly or wrongly, see them as victims of a society where it makes economic sense for a woman to take up prostitution. I also strongly question the motives of a man who deems it acceptable to buy another human being's body. Oh sorry, their not human beings, are they? THey're just women; no sorry, whores. And yes, some men sell their bodies for sex but not to women because if women have any spare cash they're going to spend it on something else( often on their children).

Sakura · 06/04/2010 09:54

"actually the point isn't whether I'm female"

Actually it is highly relevant whether you are female or not.
And English is your fourth language you say? Really? Really? As someone who speaks five languages myself can I ask you which other languages you speak? Its relevant because you seem to be implying that by being as articulate as you clearly are in your fourth language, we plebs are no intellectual match for you. And your writing tone and style is decidedly masculine.

Molesworth · 06/04/2010 10:18

I guess we always knew that the feminism topic would attract anti-feminist trolls trying to derail and stifle discussion. If the world of prostitution were really as great as they like to make out, I wonder why they feel so threatened by a bunch of women - oh, sorry, 'storm troopers' - exchanging views on the internet. Is the best policy to ignore them or what?

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 06/04/2010 10:40

I'm inclined to keep an open mind on Miss Honey, because I have heard her viewpoint from genuine women genuinely working in the sex industry. For some women, sex work is an ok way to make a living, even fun on occasions and when it's not fun it is not, to those women who have decided that it makes economic and practical sense to them to choose this work, as awful as it is to those who have no choice. Lots of jobs involve things that can make you feel nauseous, that are damaging to your health, that expose you to the risk of verbal abuse, physical violence and/or battles with your conscience. (think 'collections worker for one of those 2000% APR loan providers' for instance).
THe main problem with the most vociferous opponents of The Sex Industry as a whole (ie encopassing everyone from pimps to fetishwear models to women setting up a suggestively-named online shop to sell lube and condoms) is they have some if not most of the same messed up attitudes towards sex as the average loopy rightwing misogynist:

  • that sex is an unspeakable, special, sacred activity completely and utterly separate from everything else human beings do or think about
  • that it's women's job to service men domestically and emotionally but to ration out their access to sexual pleasure, trading it for 'commitment' (or cash)
  • that male sexual appetite is uncontrollable, ugly and disgusting, and that women don't have a sexual appetite at all
  • that a woman's 'worth' is dependent on how much sex she refuses

Sex as a commercial enterprise is frequently set up in opposition to sex in 'loving relationships' ie heteromonogamous ones. Yet violence, including sexual assault, explotiation, verbal abuse and psychological abuse occurs with considerable frequency in heteromonogamous couple-relationships (an average of two women a week killed by a partner or former partner, don't forget, has anyone got any statistics on how that compares with the number of face-to-face sex workers killed by buyers of sex in an average week?). THe obsession with sexual ownership of other people in romantic monogamy is very damaging: some non-trafficked non-enslaved sex workers see sex work as a better deal than marriage to a man who sees women as fuckable domestic appliances - with high end sex work you are selling your time by the hour and when the time's up you can walk away from the punter and forget him, which is a bit more difficult if you are living in his house and he has isolated you from your friends and family.

Molesworth · 06/04/2010 11:06

Well, I don't hold those views about sex, SGB. I seriously doubt that there are many (if any) feminists who hold those sorts of views about sex. I don't see this as a sex industry = bad: sex in a monogamous, hetero relationship = good binary. That is not a feminist view imo. There has to be a connection between the sex industry representation of 'women = fuckholes' and the mindset of men who perpetrate violence on their wives and partners. Surely this is a connection that all feminists make? I agree with blinder when she says that it's all "part of a cultural sexual dysfunction that results from the oppression of women, and the consequent demonisation of women and the repression of sex. So, yes I think the entire sex industry harms women, and is symptomatic of the harm that already exists for women. Vicious circle."

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 06/04/2010 11:19

Molesworth: The patriarchal society's opression of women doesn't start with the sex industry: the bad aspects of the sex industry reflect the pre-existing view, which originates in superstition (the abrahamic religions are all about men being entitled to own women) and the post-industrial revolution economy which is/.was dependent on women's unpaid domestic labour.
SO that end of the sex industry (and I am talking about the whole industry, the clubs, the clothing, the media not just the exchange of sexual favours for cash) which supports hedonism, choice, female sexual autonomy etc is beneficial for women by demonstrating that sex can be fun, not a chore you perform for your male keeper, that promiscuity is enjoyable, and this is better for women than the repressive model of anti-sex theocratic societies.

(The basic beginners equation here - Sweden/Denmark etc; thriving sex industry and good women's rights record vs Iran, Saudi Arabia etc, extremely repressive laws on sexual behaviour, horrendous record on women's rights.)

Molesworth · 06/04/2010 11:45

I never said that the oppression of women starts with the sex industry. Whatever gave you that idea?

You're setting up binaries here which I think are false. First there was the "sex industry = bad sex: monogamous, hetero relationship = good sex", now there's the "anti-sex/pro-sex" societies one. I don't see the output of the sex industry as being 'pro-sex' in any beneficial sense for women. The sex industry represents women in a limited way. The model of 'empowerment' it offers is one which involves conforming to a narrow stereotype of what counts as sexually attractive (to men) or sexually pleasurable. That doesn't look much like 'empowerment' or 'freedom' to me, something that is demonstrated particularly starkly when a woman is raped and then told she asked for it if she has conformed to the sex industry definition of sexual empowerment. Yes, what we have is better than living in a repressive theocratic regime, but that doesn't make it the best of all possible worlds.

OP posts:
MissHoneyMoon · 06/04/2010 12:36

Re-reading the thread, I am struck by the irony of a lot of the posts. A central theme appears to be that prostitution is evil and damages women even beyond those working in the industry as it objectifies women. Well, how peculiar that my supposed feminist ?sisters? appear to be the ones objectifying and resorting to derogatory and degrading attacks by labelling me charmingly as a ?fuck hole?. My reference that English is not my first language was to highlight that I am not communicating in my native tongue as someone pointed out. I tend to judge others not by class, profession etc but by how they conduct themselves. The attitude on this thread by some members is to make sweeping and insulting statements about prostitution without first of all accepting personal experiences from at least one actual sex worker nor backing up that demagogic propaganda with actual real arguments.

Must be a strange world for some posters here ? so black and white ? no subtle nuances - men are the perpetrators women are the victims? Those vilifying the ?raping? clients should pause for one second then look at their daddies, brothers, sons and their partners. Yes, all of them are my clients. Again witnessing the vitriol of some posters ? I am wondering if their deep seated unease and quite visible hatred of the whore is also linked to a deep insecurity? So dear Ms Litany, Blinkered and the OP ? I have to dash ? your hubbies are over to my boudoir later today xxx

Molesworth · 06/04/2010 12:43

Yeah, bye MissHM, have a great day

OP posts:
Mandamumu · 06/04/2010 13:00

SGB, I don't know who you are, but I think I like you.

I'm not here to tell you that all prostitution is good, although the example above comes from the US where prostitution is illegal in the majority of states, not the UK.

I'm here to tell you that not all prostitution is bad.

Dittany I have no problem with using the word cunnilingus, but I don't see why I should be forced to. Surely that's the joy of the english language. I don't feel the need to use the words urinate or defecate either, but I'm sure that in that case you wouldn't jump up and down about my use of florid language.
It's not about disassociation.
I would never claim to have made love to a client, but I would jump up and down and demand you use the word intercourse to describe your bedroom antics.

We in the sex industry (as a whole) want to see an end to sex trafficking and coercion etc. We do our best, we offer help, we try to make sure that all the clients know the warning signs and we make sure they know the crimestoppers number, but there is only so much we can do. Expecting anything more from us is like expecting the nice man from Boots chemist to put an end to street corner drugs peddling.

You want to know who I am? Just ask.
You want to visit my website? You want to exchange emails? Whatever...

I'm easy to find.

Mandamumu · 06/04/2010 13:02

Wouldn't jump up and down, not would

ellesapelle · 06/04/2010 13:05

I work for a charity in an extremely deprived area and I've seen prostitutes getting in and out of cars and it's shocking to see women who look so ill and malnourished in this country. These women are obviously drug addicts and are incredibly emaciated. I think that any man who would sleep with these women must have something very wrong with him. I do think that it's a world away from what MissHM describes. MissHM is selling more than just her body. A woman desperate for a few pounds who is completely off her face on drugs has only her body to sell.

An earlier poster wrote: 'Women can do what they like with their bodies. But if those actions contribute to the subordination of women in society then they aren't feminist actions.' I don't think that women such as MissHM can be held responsible for trafficked women or the drug addicts charging a few pounds for sex. As I type this on my laptop I'm complicit in the rape of women in the Democratic Republic of Congo who are victims of the civil war fuelled by a mineral which we all have in our laptops and mobile phones. I agree with the point made by MissHM about how we all benefit from slave labour every time we go to Tesco. It's unfair to single out escorts.

SolidGoldBrass · 06/04/2010 13:11

Molesworth: It has been my experience that some parts of the sex industry (particularly the swinging and BDSM elements in terms of clubs, mags etc) have a far broader definition of what is attractive than the mainstream media and a wider range of options for sexual behaviour and choice. Women who like, for instance, sex with more than one partner at a time, or exhibitionism, or roleplay are pretty much invariably told by the mainstream that they are only doing it for men's benefits, nuts, on drugs or wicked and this type of criticism is quadrupled if they are not 'conventionally' attractive eg not young or not thin.

dittany · 06/04/2010 13:20

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany · 06/04/2010 13:21

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Molesworth · 06/04/2010 13:35

"I don't think that women such as MissHM can be held responsible for trafficked women or the drug addicts charging a few pounds for sex."

No-one has said that it's the fault of sex workers.

A couple of contributors have posted on here saying that they are sex workers, that they choose to do it, that they enjoy it. One of them claims to speak for the majority of prostitutes, and argues that she has greater authority to speak on this than those of us who do not work in the sex industry. Although there is some truth in that - I have no personal experience of the sex industry, other than being a woman and therefore affected by it indirectly, as are we all - I find it odd that someone in that fortunate position is so keen to shout down anyone who voices concern about the exploitation of women in the sex industry itself (surely no-one can deny that this happens, even if you think it's less common than some have claimed) and about the wider effects of the sex industry in terms of gender inequality. That there are some sex workers who do not consider themselves to be exploited and who do not consider the sex industry to be harmful on a wider scale does not prove that there isn't a problem and does not prove that they represent the majority of sex workers, just because they're the only ones who happen to have popped up on this thread.

You know, it isn't a few crackpot wimmin with hangups about sex who are saying this. How about a senior police officer like Paul Holmes who said "In my 32 years working in vice, I can count on one hand the number of working girls who were not coerced or abused." I reckon he can speak with some authority about this too.

This really isn't about demonising or blaming sex workers. I'm amazed that that even needs to be said, tbh.

OP posts:
Mandamumu · 06/04/2010 13:35

You think that Mumsnet has no prossies/ex prossies amongst it's ranks?