New feminist... ?

[lollyhop2girls]

Hi There,

I stumbled across this board today and I need some advice.. info.. about feminism.

I really have never considered that I am a feminist. I dont really know anything about it at all, I am not uneducated or ignorant, just dont happen to have had the issue raised around me before. Ive never been inclined to research it either until recently.

I saw a series on TV the other day called 'Women' it was looking at a different subject each week. First I think was Women's lib, then motherhood. I think the next part is on tonight actually if anyone's interested.

I found it fascinating, particularly the motherhood episode. It looked at the way different families work and the different roles that women play in the home.

I am a full time working mum of a 4 year old girl. I live with my boyfriend and for half of the week his 10 year old daughter.

I have always had strong views on how I am often judged for working full time. I get angry at articles in newspapers about how because I work my children arent having the right start in life, I am selfish, I dont feed my kids properly, they watch too much TV blah blah blah. (none of that is true in my case actually and if I think of all the mothers I have known over the last few years; the ones who stay at home with their kids actually are more likely to turn to frozen ready meals, day time TV and hours on the computer - not wanting to generalise, just speaking from my own observations)

I also have strong views on women who infantilize themselves be it financially, independance etc

I also hate when people say to my daughter 'when you grow up and get married' or when they constantly comment on how pretty she is rather than how clever.

Also, my step daughter is obsessed with dieting at only 10 years old. Her mother very openly diets and agonises over her apperance with her daughter. I mean, christ does she WANT her to grow up thinking she can only be succesful and happy if shes thin? (Her mother also tells her that school isnt really important because shes so pretty she'll probably just marry someone rich and not have to worry... arghhhhhhh)

In fact I think I may be an out and out feminist but still not really sure what that would mean..

Anyone got any advice.. comments..?

Sorry, I must sound a be naive. I would just like to know more because most of the time in the world we live in I feel quite alone sometimes.. if there was a group that had the same ideas etc as myself I would feel less so.

Thnaks.

Ooh OOh I have another question; what about men? I love men. Real ones that is who treat women with respect and as equals. My boyfriend (Im new to webforums.. OH?) Is wonderful.

We split all chores down the middle, not consciously exactly its just if something needs done, one of us will do it. He does a little more housework than me as he works from home on a friday so makes the most of getting some done while the kids arent around. And I do nearly all of the cooking because I love to cook. We thank EACH OTHER almost every time one of us does something and but I certainly dont praise him anymore than he does me.

Im sick and tired of other women saying to me 'ooh youre so lucky he does all of that for you around the house..' WTF? We work the same hours.. actually I work more. So why am I lucky that we split the chores equally? I am fortunate to be in a repectful realtionship but it is no more than I deserve and if it wasnt like that then I would leave.

The only time stereotypes kick in is when he says he has to put the bins out because its a man's job. We always chuckle and he is aware that this is a throw back to gender stereotypes from when he was younger. (Sometimes I sneak them out just to prove I am capable!)

He loves that I have a career and we feel that it is a big part of our relationship that we 'compete' with each other in this area.

He does earn almost twice as much as me (he's 15 years older) but never uses it to make me feel (and I have never let it make me feel) inferior in anyway.

An old boyfriend of mine had a mother who was a self proclaimed feminist and did nothing but bitch and moan about how inadaquate men were... thats surely not what its all about is it??

Im certain its not having dont some research but what are your views?

P.s; what about make up and pretty dresses..? I love to be glamourous and Im pretty certain i do it for myself.. Or do I? Any thoughts on that subject would be great too as its probably where I let my inner feminist down..

Its ok to celebrate being a women by looking your best though isnt it?

ooh questions questions.. and much excitement!

Congratulations, you are clearly a feminist

Hello lollyhop

'ooh youre so lucky he does all of that for you around the house..'

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Heehee I know. He even picks up his own socks... what a treat!

Thanks for the congrats.. now what, is there some kind of initiation?

I'm going to get involved in the book group so I guess thats a start xx

I trust you have invested in the dungarees already?

I'm really looking forward to the book club. I can identify a lot with your post lolly. I've always considered myself a feminist - because it seems mad not to - but it's only been in recent times that I've started thinking about it more systematically, and the main reason for that is that I've been doing a degree so I've learned how to think critically and encountered radical ideas. I feel a bit ashamed that it has taken me so long tbh.

Look on Mumsnet Local for your nearest bra-burning.
and when you have done that, someone will tap you on the shoulder and invite you to one of those consciousness-raising sessions where we all sit around in a circle and look at our own vulvas in a mirror.

Sounds like you are a feminist to me Lollyhop! All the things you said ring so true, and if it's any comfort I am sure you will be doing a lot to counterbalance her mum's influence just by being in your DSD's life.

Where are you based? I can point your towards some London-based groups but elsewhere they're hard to find.

Yes to feeling alone in holding these views too - I met up with some other feminists for the first time last year and was blown away by what a relief it was to be in the middle of a room full of people to whom you didn't need to explain the basic concept of equality. Being around other people who "get it" is very powerful and inspiring IME.

"I am fortunate to be in a repectful relationship but it is no more than I deserve and if it wasn't like that then I would leave." Someone needs to start a relationships thread recommending this as a mantra to everyone on there. That's exactly how I feel, but it's amazing and sad how many people feel they don't "deserve" that.

Never mind you being lucky to have a man who does his share, he is lucky to have you working so hard and pulling your weight at home too. Most of all, his and your daughters are lucky to have you as a (step)mother, because your attitude will do them the power of good, I'm sure.

Thanks all, SethStarkaddersMum, hilarious!

ElephantsAndMiasmas - very kind words, I didnt really come on here for praise but that really meant a lot to me. Thank you.

Molesworth, see you on bookclub then. I just ordered it off amazon. Didnt spot how long you get to read it though

Some group contacts would be great, I live in Reading which is only 20 mins on train to Paddington. Im there occassionaly with work so it could work out sometimes...

Im really pleased I came on here

I think having a named topic where we can talk about these things will prove to be quite signficant.
One of the reasons I come on MN (and have done for 4 years) is because it is one of the few places in my life where I can find a whole bunch of feminists. I would happily have joined a group but IME there seem to be plenty of single-issue feminist groups (eg Womens' Environmental Network, Reclaim the Night) but it's quite hard to find groups that are just generally feminist, especially outside London.

Mm, I agree SSM. I love mumsnet because it is a place full of outspoken women helping each other, and debating fiercely, it's brilliant.

London Feminist Network and Million Women Rise are both in London lollyhop - haven't time to find links now but they are easy to google, and you can email them and ask about upcoming events. I think LFN has a regular bookclub and monthly meetups. Check out Object as well. If you are on facebook you can sign up to the groups on their and you get messages about their plans and campaigns etc.

ll, you are like most women. My daughter just got back from shopping and was talking about the innanity of the lives of the housewives she saw there midweek their lives shopping and having to look good to keep the rich man because they are economically dependent. It's a model which is pernicious to many of us.

I've never had an issue since my teens over any of this because in a sense I'm apart. I've always worked full time. I don't watch TV. I don't often come across sexism so I'm protected from it. Even when I was 22 and newly married I could never have conceived of a relationship which wasn't 50/50. A man doesn't help particularly if you both work full time as I always have done. It would be ridiculous to call it helping or say he's good. he's no more good than the mother who cleans the loos.

So yiou're not unusual at all. Indeed 20 years ago when my daughters were little I remember buying them boks which showed women as window cleaners. They were slightly funny story books but I don't think they did any harm and my daughters now in their early 20s wouldn't accept sexism either and nor would my mother really. My father was wielding the vaccuum cleaner at weekends in the 60s and 70s and up with babies in the night. It's just that some pathetic women choose to enable sexist conduct by men - more fool them. But they do need to realise how stupid they are.

I don't think it's kind or helpful to call oppressed women stupid (although tbh I am sometimes tempted to on here - cf the lapdancing thread ahem ahem)

The pressure to conform (to norms which keep us down) is immense

It won't do them any harm. May be they need tough love so the scales can fall from their eyes.

I see your point, although I'd rather do it with a bit of reasoned and reasonable argument. But it really is galling to have sexist crap spouted at one by another woman

Still, I'd rather reserve my ire for the most deserving targets i.e. those in positions of power who perpetuate conditions of oppression.

But I think a lot of the problems are caused domestically by men who are sexist and women who accept they will be the one dealing with childcare. If you can ge your relationship with right then working life tends to sort itself out so you can get out there and out earn everyone. If in stead you have a sexist man at home who expects you to do more at home than he does then it's much harder.

I agree that childcare is a central issue. But the problem is not just the way individuals behave in their relationships: working practices aren't set up to make equality easily achievable, are they? And 'culturally' (I realise that's a very woolly term, but I can't think of a better one at the moment, sorry) we are still assumed to be the ones who take responsibility for childcare even if we also work full-time.

Hello lollyhop,

You are not alone! It can feel like that sometimes though. I watched that Women Documentary and also found it very interesting. I was surprised that other people who had watched it (not many in my professional work place - mainly women in my departement too) thought that the women in the final episode were 'extreme'. Just seemed sensible and humane to me. The only thing I didn't agree with was the 'women only' rule which seemed counter productive.

department

Meant add that I agree with your post entirely SSM (the one about the importance of having this topic I mean, rather than the one about collectively contemplating our vulvas )

"Meant add"? Meant to add

Oh no.. I think Im going to have to give up my job just to spend time debating all of these issues, now I've set my inner feminist free I could go on all day !

Must become more well read in the subject I feel.

I agree with you Molesworth it seems more logical to aim reason at "those in positions of power who perpetuate conditions of oppression"

Thinking of my step daughter (DSD? Im new to the abbreviations!) Its not hard to see why so many women are of the mind that all they can do it bring up the kids when that kind of crap is spouted at them from a young age.

Someone taught her mother that way of thinking, and her mother before and no ones ever thought to change the cycle... until now I come along in to her life wahha ha hhahaha (evil laugh)

That said, ignorance is no excuse. My mother was opressed but I'm not scared to not be.

I dont think the women were extreme in 'WOMEN' I agreed witht he vast majority. What I felt was 'extreme' was the women who had a PHd from Oxford (cambridge, or similar) and had given up her career to stay at home with the children and clean all day.

I dont agree with the no men rule either though. Surely this is about empowering women through equality? No about excluding men. If they are excluded are they not going to feel more hostile towards womenkind?

Plus lots of them OH included (she is learning the abbs!) are feminists themselves anyway.

I'm sorry if my comments have been done to death. I am an amature!

It's a difficult one, the all women -v- men & women question. Atm almost all the feminist groups, marches etc are women & girls only it seems to me.

Now I really can imagine why that might be. For one thing a LOT of the women in the groups have experienced gender-based violence of one kind or another, from a father, a partner, a rapist etc (unsurprisingly feminism often appeals to women who have had this kind of experience). And the supportive, women-only atmosphere of the groups is what makes them feel able to keep meeting up, speak freely and feel safe.

Also marches like Reclaim the Night for example are a powerful statement because it is women taking to the streets at night, something we've been taught to avoid for our own personal safety (thereby putting blame on women who are raped while "disobeying" the unwritten curfew).

Admitting men to meetings could have several undesirable outcomes. They might dominate the conversation - research shows that men are heard a lot more in group discussions, and women's voices could become unheard even in their own movement. Their mere presence might derail the debate or the issue, with everyone having to jump around saying "oh, except you Ben, men gain from their male privilege except you we meant!" which would be nauseating and totally neutralise a debate out of misplaced "politeness". (We're trained to it from birth.) And lastly even if they do "get it" you don't want to hear about men's terrible guilty feelings all the time, at the expense of more constructive debate.

So I can completely understand a) why existing groups are all female and b) the potential downsides of a more mixed movement. BUT like you lollyhop I would like to see another group too, one that allows men and women to work together to end violence against women. After all - sounds like a sick joke but we can't do it without them. When I've been marching on e.g. Million Women Rise I feel it's all too easy for passersby to write us off as a load of lesbians/manhaters/commune-dwellers who want to eradicate the Y chromosome altogether. It's easy because there we are, all women together.

My personal feeling is that I would love to have an additional annual protest where men and boys could join in. Couples could march arm in arm, teenage boys could walk with their little sisters, whole families could stand up and be counted together. My dad would come, and my brother, and my DP.

Because much as it makes my blood boil, the new upsurge of feminism would be taken more seriously if it was more visibly representative of "normality" - women with families, people with grown-up sons who have taken to heart what their feminist mothers taught them, women who love men at an individual level, but still take a stand against the patriarchy. And it would show that you can be a man and a feminist, you don't have to snigger at naked ladies and play at running over prostitutes to be a real man.

Actually this seems to be mixed, just launched this week: www.ukfeminista.org.uk/vision-a-mission.html.

Sorry for epic length of last post - but do want to clarify that I don't want feminism to become a no-go area for lesbians FGS! Just meant that it would be great if the world could see that the movement includes women who love women, women who love men, women who just love The West Wing, and men & boys who want to end sexism and violence against women too.

Brilliant post Elephants. Couldn't agree more

I found that fascinating, thank you xx