New feminist... ?

[lollyhop2girls]

Hi There,

I stumbled across this board today and I need some advice.. info.. about feminism.

I really have never considered that I am a feminist. I dont really know anything about it at all, I am not uneducated or ignorant, just dont happen to have had the issue raised around me before. Ive never been inclined to research it either until recently.

I saw a series on TV the other day called 'Women' it was looking at a different subject each week. First I think was Women's lib, then motherhood. I think the next part is on tonight actually if anyone's interested.

I found it fascinating, particularly the motherhood episode. It looked at the way different families work and the different roles that women play in the home.

I am a full time working mum of a 4 year old girl. I live with my boyfriend and for half of the week his 10 year old daughter.

I have always had strong views on how I am often judged for working full time. I get angry at articles in newspapers about how because I work my children arent having the right start in life, I am selfish, I dont feed my kids properly, they watch too much TV blah blah blah. (none of that is true in my case actually and if I think of all the mothers I have known over the last few years; the ones who stay at home with their kids actually are more likely to turn to frozen ready meals, day time TV and hours on the computer - not wanting to generalise, just speaking from my own observations)

I also have strong views on women who infantilize themselves be it financially, independance etc

I also hate when people say to my daughter 'when you grow up and get married' or when they constantly comment on how pretty she is rather than how clever.

Also, my step daughter is obsessed with dieting at only 10 years old. Her mother very openly diets and agonises over her apperance with her daughter. I mean, christ does she WANT her to grow up thinking she can only be succesful and happy if shes thin? (Her mother also tells her that school isnt really important because shes so pretty she'll probably just marry someone rich and not have to worry... arghhhhhhh)

In fact I think I may be an out and out feminist but still not really sure what that would mean..

Anyone got any advice.. comments..?

Sorry, I must sound a be naive. I would just like to know more because most of the time in the world we live in I feel quite alone sometimes.. if there was a group that had the same ideas etc as myself I would feel less so.

Thnaks.

Thing is with all this negotiation stuff, is it why "womens work" is paid so badly and "mens work" so well? Is it simply down to confidence/cockiness? ie down to a national structure of employment which favours the "male" trait of bigging yourself up and asking for lots of dosh?

i wish i knew how to do it, I really do. I know if I was a bloke I'd be on serious wonga by now. As it is I work part time in a medium powered job.

Mind you I'm not sure I'd want too much responsibility so maybe it's all for the best. (Is that the sort of comment that women make to keep themsleves down?)

Thank you Dittany that makes me feel a lot better

Ooh I dont know.... I do support you as I think you've been treated unfairly as so many women are when it comes to issues around maternity and pay. But I have never had a problem asking for the pay I deserve. I wouldnt stand for being paid less than a man, knowingly, for a second.

If someone thinks Im a bitch for being assertive then thats their opinion but it makes no difference to my actions.

I am a good negotiator but thats not because im a strong woman, or a manly woman or a man or whatever, Im just good at it. Im also good at sewing and cooking, and finances and snooker.. (haha snooker, i am good at snooker actually but its a funny example - was trying to think of 'manly' hobbies!)

I hope that you dont feel you dont have good negotiation skills because you are a woman.. If you do then someone has made you feel like that somewhere along the way and they are wrong wrong wrong wrong..

It's not to do with negotiation skills as such - in fact I don't even know whether mine are any good or not - it would simply never cross my mind to ask about money and when I have got jobs it has never crossed my mind to ask them for more than they have offered (unless it was less than I was already on). It's just not something that i ever thought to do. Who tells you that it is something you are supposed to do?

i suppose I was brought up to think that it is uncouth to talk about money?

Not sure. Not even sure if it is a male/female thing TBH.

I think the basic problem is that I am quite a straightforward person and not a wheeler dealer type.

I remember one of my bosses once being involved in a multimillion pound legal wrangle and saying about whose move it was and it was all a game, and how the whole work thing was a game. Whereas I see it as a job that you get paid to do the best you can.

I often think that maybe I was missing something that everyone else (all the men?) were in on - that it was some kind of competition but no-one had told me the rules or even in fact that it worked like that.

I work for myself although when I was employed I had no difficulty asking for more.

"I have never asked anyone for more money even though i know I am an excellent employee. " So why am I as I am and others aren't? I turn work away if I don't feel I'm paid enough, I refer them to lesser people who charge less. I'm very helpful but if you want me (the best) you pay what I say.

If you pay nuts you get monkeys. High price equals the best. You must be good because you charge a lot etc etc Why am I worth over 42 times the minimum wage (which is still cheap compared to some of my competitors) because I am really good.... laughing as I type but I genuinely think I am and people wouldn't pay unless they also thought so. It's just how markets work.

And let's not assume just before Imsonot is as she is all women are the same. There are plenty of women in the City of London and elsewhere perfectly good at negotiating pay. There are more female millionaires under 40 in the UK than men and women up to age 25 in the Uk typically earn more than men. It's by no means hopeless.

This is why I wonder whether its a male/female thing or a different personality thing.

I was working in the city and canary wharf, certainly not earning peanuts but I discovered much less than the men, while I was demonstrably performing better than them.

it seems unfair to me that people who are good at their jobs get paid less than people who are inferior but have more inflated senses of their own worth, but even that says something. Maybe they had the correct sense of their self worth and mine was too low.

it's all a bit depressing really.

I suppose xenai that you view everything from the perspective of markets and so on - that is your field, you are also v driven successful and confident. All good.

I suppose my argument is "snoffair" which isn't really much of an argument is it.

I would be very interested to see the results if that wage comparitor law comes in. In my old sector the pay gap was 40% IIRC. So maybe I was working in a sector that didn't exactly encourage women to ask for more IYSWIM.

Maybe they didn't pay me as much because of my typing skills

Amused at your saying your argument is not much of an argument which fits in with peraps your stance above... why isn't it the best argument on the thread - because it's yours and you don't think your arguments are good. Mine by contrast are the best that ever appear on mumsnet... laughing as I type.

Women typically expect their light hidden under a bushel to be recognised. The game in business is to appear brilliant even if you aren't but ideal be it and say it and indeed the saying of it can be as much fun and part of your success as the sitting there doing unsung work which is for mugs. But the past doesn't matter. Nothing to stop anyone henceforth singing their own praises. You're a brand. Sell your brand. You're amazing. Anyone would be lucky to have you (whoever the you might be).

finding Xenia rather inspiring on this thread

xenia thank you

You are right of course.

You obviously knew all about this game from day 1, some people do it instinctively I guess.

Maybe they should teach it in schools. I will try and tell my girls about it - I never got any help with this stuff from my parents as, while they were successful, they both worked in the same public sector field with fixed pay. And thus had no idea about office politics or having to ask for money or stuff like that. in fact I am sure they taught me that hard work will bring rewards as it did for them.

Still I know now, even if it is rather late in the day

I feel very uplifted

Actually someone eid pay me to life coach them by phone. I'm always available for hire - like Stephen Byers with his tax meter except I'm better than he is, obviously.

I hope my girls' old schools (Habs, North London) teach confidence, debating, ability to get your way, entrepreneurship etc etc. Don't most schools put pupils in for busines competitions, young enterprise etc? But my parents weren't entrepreneurs so I don't know what makes one person better able to ask for more money than others and of course there are limits. If you're hopeless no one will pay anything. If you go well above market rates you aren't likely to get far either.

I went to habs

I don't think you should look on it as cockiness bringing rewards. If you're not good at your job you're unlikely to be in a good negotiating position for a payrise. If you're good and assertive then you're all set. You'll never get there if you think of yourself as a victim of unfair circumstance ('those cocky guys get all the lucky breaks'). Imagine that it's an opportunity for you ('look what a bit of assertiveness achieved for Dick Head, maybe I could try that approach').

I speak as someone who has just had the 5th (5th) unsuccessful interview in a row. I think they are f*&king morons to be passing up an opportunity to have someone as talented as me. I am actually incredulous about it.

Yes, it's often how you cope with failure that counts. I think I've had 100% rejection rate for Government non exec things - more fool them.

I was browsing magazines the other day and noticed that most of them had headlines about Jennifer Aniston being 'sad because doesn't have a man', 'desperate for kids',, 'left on the self' etc. Never read something similar about a 40 yrs old male actor'. And she is gorgeous, she has career and she earns.

Is no wonder some women -high earners too-accept a lot of crap from men in order to keep them or marry them.
And most of those comments actually come from women.

There is nothing as wonderful as being single in your 40s, just take it from me.

But what makes me feel so and others not? Is it simply I don't watch films or TV so I am not subject to the same influences as others? Or is it my internal psyche which seems to make content?

romanarama yes it's a state of mind isn't it.

I've got every job I've ever had an interview for
Always been promoted quickly, often quickest "ever" IYSWIM
Glowing performance reviews
Extra responsibility - being made team leader when in early 20s that sort of thing

And yet I'm obviously doing something wrong. Which is why I think there's something I'm missing. I find out that people I am supervising are earning more than me. Why? Snoffair

I do believe you, i wasnot married and didn't have dcs until i was 39.

You see I get all the praise and promotion.

Just not the cash.

hmmmmmm.

In my last job which I took after the whole being paid less debacle, when I decided to take pay cut to do something worthy close to home blah they promoted me in a couple of months. I guess I should have asked for more money than they offered? I was about to go on mat leave though...

lollyhop,
On the contrary, I was socially conditioned to get a career. My grandmother worked full-time all her life, while my grandfather,( who was out of work after the coal mines closed,) basically stayed at home to cook for their seven kids. Of the seven kids, my mother was the only one to get into grammar school. She has a very successful career and worked full-time while I was growing up. So I was not in any way socially conditioned to be a SAHM. My grandmother is mortified, and in some ways I am the family shame.

This argument is multi-faceted. Women did need economic independence from men, but I have never bought the notion that caring for children was inherently inferior work. And then I had a baby myself and then I knew it wasn't. Having my first child blew me away.

I had my first child at 25. I have a Masters degree but I chose to have children instead. I'm glad I made this choice and thus far have not regretted it. I would have been seriously pissed off if I'd fallen for the idea that paid work and a career is all-important only to find myself infertile at 35.

But I understand all of your points and have no intention of remaining economically dependant on my husband forever. I intend to work again as soon as my youngest is about two. So this argument is only really relevant for when children are small. I am also a bit at women who are SAHMs with much older children.
It's just a shit situation that in order to be with my babies, I effectively had to sacrifice any meaningfull career.

Then again, is it? Lots of people re-train mid-life. I am only 29 now and since having children I realise that what I thought I wanted to do may not really have suited me. I would never have been able to work for an international company that exploited women's labour in the third world for example. And yet many supposed feminists do work for such companies.

A good book addressing these issues is by a man . Oliver James's Affluenza. There is a section at the end offering real, political solutions to these issues. He suggests that its the daycare thats the problem, and I agree. GreenandBlackstars mentions the possible negative psychological effects of daycare on children and so the best option after having a SAHM or SAHF would be a nanny. If I knew I could have afforded a nanny I may well have pressed on with a career. He also discusses flexi-time and compares the UK with Scandinavia (Denmark, I think), where offices close at 4 so the MEN can pick the kids up from school. They don't have the crazy work culture that Britain has. But Denmark uses a lot of daycare in order to succeed in this "equality" and again, paid work appears to be regarded are all-important, whereas you are seen as a pariah if you decide to become a SAHM. So Scandinavia doesn't have all the answers either.

ElephantandMiasmas,
I loved your post. Yes, "essential tasks" is a very good way of defining what is usually termed as "women's work". I also liked your analogy of a man unicycling over the alps with a blancmange: anything men do is seen as being valid or important. I wasn't sure if your example actually was an analogy or whether it had actually happened, because that is exactly the kind of rubbish that men get kudos for all the time. That would probably make front page news.
On the other hand "Woman saves toddler from choking to death" wouldn't get any air-time, would it? And yet, which is more important in the grand scheme of things...?

ROFL @ your last post sakura, too right