New feminist... ?

[lollyhop2girls]

Hi There,

I stumbled across this board today and I need some advice.. info.. about feminism.

I really have never considered that I am a feminist. I dont really know anything about it at all, I am not uneducated or ignorant, just dont happen to have had the issue raised around me before. Ive never been inclined to research it either until recently.

I saw a series on TV the other day called 'Women' it was looking at a different subject each week. First I think was Women's lib, then motherhood. I think the next part is on tonight actually if anyone's interested.

I found it fascinating, particularly the motherhood episode. It looked at the way different families work and the different roles that women play in the home.

I am a full time working mum of a 4 year old girl. I live with my boyfriend and for half of the week his 10 year old daughter.

I have always had strong views on how I am often judged for working full time. I get angry at articles in newspapers about how because I work my children arent having the right start in life, I am selfish, I dont feed my kids properly, they watch too much TV blah blah blah. (none of that is true in my case actually and if I think of all the mothers I have known over the last few years; the ones who stay at home with their kids actually are more likely to turn to frozen ready meals, day time TV and hours on the computer - not wanting to generalise, just speaking from my own observations)

I also have strong views on women who infantilize themselves be it financially, independance etc

I also hate when people say to my daughter 'when you grow up and get married' or when they constantly comment on how pretty she is rather than how clever.

Also, my step daughter is obsessed with dieting at only 10 years old. Her mother very openly diets and agonises over her apperance with her daughter. I mean, christ does she WANT her to grow up thinking she can only be succesful and happy if shes thin? (Her mother also tells her that school isnt really important because shes so pretty she'll probably just marry someone rich and not have to worry... arghhhhhhh)

In fact I think I may be an out and out feminist but still not really sure what that would mean..

Anyone got any advice.. comments..?

Sorry, I must sound a be naive. I would just like to know more because most of the time in the world we live in I feel quite alone sometimes.. if there was a group that had the same ideas etc as myself I would feel less so.

Thnaks.

Olver James can be a bit of a sexist though. I'm not sure I'd recommend reading him. I doubt he is much of a capitalist either so feminist capitalists or anyone who wants working women to "get on" are not likely to find OJ inspiring them to be Managing Directors of big British companies.

On confidence it is also partly an age thing. As you get more experienced (and superlatively good at your work like Xenia etc etc) into your 30s and 40s you get more confident which is why it's brilliant being 40 something rather than 20 something in so many ways.

As for babies and the reference to having one at 25 I'd had 2 by 24 and still worked full time in the City and felt I had enough time with them but I did leave work by 6.30 mostly because perhaps I was lucky where I worked and that may well have affected my income but like most full time working parents you make choices like that every dya but it doesn't have to be a choice between part time or no work and seeing babies and working full time and never seeing the baby at all. As mine never slept breastfeeding every 2 hours all nightf for many months gave me heaps of time with them apart from evenings, mornings, weekends and holidays

Sakura the Scandinavian comparison is interesting. For Scandinavian governments women have to be in the workforce in order for them to do their sums right. They can afford to provide such comprehensive childcare in eg Sweden because participation of women in the workforce and, ergo, the tax take is so high.

I'm not so convinced of the evidence for the psychological damage caused by nurseries. Are Scandinavians all psychologically damaged? Are urban chinese (free nursery for all there too - no SAHMs in Chinese cities)? I haven't read enough about it. I don't personally think nursery was great for 2 of my dcs, but that's just anecdotal.

Xenia you'd prob have to be 24 to deal with 2-hrly feeds all night plus ft city job 'til 6.30pm while maintaining professional credibility, ie keeping eyes open, remembering own name consistently etc . (Are you Shirley Conran in rl? You are my top favourite mner btw. Inspiring)

How much sleep do you need xenia? I was wondering this last night and suspect there may be a correlation with the choices that people make.

If I had to work full time in the city and then BF a baby every 2 hours through the night I would have a nervous breakdown after about two weeks!

Have you ever thought about writing a book/have you written one? The feminist capitalist POV from someone who has done it so successfully would attract a very wide readership I'm sure. All those habs girls for one

Have been dying to comment on these but had to restarin for a while as I am trying to fit in 100 things today I should have done yesterday but was busy gassing on here

Sakura; The SAHM debate is definitely not black and white. I really never felt like I wanted to 'give up' my career, or should I say 'put my career on hold' so it was the natural choice for me to work. Its easy for me to say 'oh Id never be dependant on a man financially' because I wouldnt want to stay at home. I can understand if it was your instinct to want to be a SAHM, and you havent be influenced by social conditioning (although I do think that goes further than what your parents did. i.e. media, other mums etc)your choices dont mean you are being oppressed.

That said I too am when women stay at home after their kids are at school.. then they are literally keeping house for hubby as far as I can see.

Past school age I think the best influence on the girls is seeing mummy going out to work and being succesful/ driven etc. I dont think i could 'preach' (bad word use) feminist views and then try to explain why I stay indoors all day washing daddys pants while he earns the dosh..

Xenia - I find you inspiring too. And I find everyone on here inspiring to not feel threatened by Xenia. I went on netmums a while back and mentioned I worked full time .. I was told by several members that they felt sorry for my children for having such a selfish mother
It seems that a lot of women find women who do not choose a 'traditional role' i.e. that of homemaker, threatening in some way and can be plain mean to back up their arguement.

Re lack of sleep; I have worked 9 hour days since my daughter was 5 months old. Some nights I slept, some I didnt. I think your body adapts to deal with whats thrown at it. Mind you I was 22 when i had her..

Just to put my last rambled post more consisely for anyone who's eyes glazed over.

Working Vs staying at home; If the choice you made is truely a free choice of your own then you are surely not being oppressed.

If your child is past baby/ toddler stage then the work that is left to do at home is not enough to occupy a person with a brain and so in order to not be copping out you really need to be working... IMO...

Sakura, I think it's great for you that you had your children early and have not regretted it. I do, though, think your choice of words "I would have been seriously pissed off if I'd fallen for the idea that paid work and a career is all-important only to find myself infertile at 35" is very slightly tactless - speaking as someone who's just having her first child at 40! It's not as black and white as that - yes, you could have suffered from declining fertility later on, who knows, but actually plenty of women are choosing to do it the other way round and that's also quite possible. (As I'm in this situation, I've been interested to find out that it has always been the case that some women in their late thirties and early forties have started their families - just not as many as nowadays.)

I'll grant you though that I've never been someone who's known all along that I desperately want kids, or similar - I was prepared to risk it not being possible if it didn't work out at this point, whereas if I was really keen then I would have tried harder to have them earlier. But then I'd also have had to find the right partner, which doesn't always happen straightforwardly either...

lollyhop I don't think 'free choice' is so easy to define. I personally agree that for me staying at home while the kids are at school is the equivalent of being everybody's servant. I personally also think it is extremely unfortunate for women that there are women who actively aspire to this role because they believe that it is worthwhile to 'support their husbands' or to have that time to manage all family issues so hubby doesn't have to worry about them and there is more free time all round. I think that that is not a free choice, but that it's a result of social conditioning that makes women believe that is an appropriate role for them (=servant), while there husbands do not (I am not aware of stay-at-home husbands who are not there to look after pre-schoolers/because they are unwillingly unemployed/because they are incapacitated in some way?). I don't think this is free choice.

I'm also aware that many people will find this patronising. And I realise that the school day is not as long as the working day, which means there are practical issues around childcare that are not always simple to resolve. I have had my fair share of nanny drama too, and plenty of phases of exhaustion that made me wonder what on Earth I was doing.

Yes, that dynamic disgusts many working women - that women should serve men, take care of the hosue etc to support that big man earning the mega bucks (and everything is mega bucks if you're at home earning nothing). It's a hideous dynamic that few women except those who never would have any chance to earn more than the minimum wage should really aspire to.

Sleep? I love loads and loads of sleep. Daughter 1 was the worst sleeper as she had colic. I'd have her and then feed her until about 10pm - she loved to breastfeed as much as she could always and then her father woudl hold her over his shoulder until mid night - you see how these types of fair marriages aid women working and then if she were still up I'd feed her at mid night. I'm not saying she fed every 2 hours every night but we had a lot of nights when she was crying for 2 or 3 hours in the night. but Gosh is it NOT easier at home. I can remember even now 25 years on the relief of shutting the door at 8am and thinking I can now sit on a tube and read a book for 30 mins and then sit at a desk and I can have my own time, my own space, I won't be touched all day (over touched - that feeling youc an get with very touchy babies) and how lovely that is and then of course loved getting home to breastfeed her after work.

Is it really easier being home with 3 children under 5 all day and getting no sleep and doing all your own housework. You're tired then too. It's just worse on all counts. None of them slept through the night until they were over a year old. Now I have to shake some of them awake at weekends. the little phase doesn't last long but your career does and they never thank you for earning a pittance and see you resenting the fact you gave up your career for them.

All I can say is that it is absolutely dead easy now in my 40s and I've 20+ years of nice working life (and family life) ahead.

I didn't feel more tired at 36 when I had the twins than at 22. Everything was terribly easy by then as we had the money to pay for cleaning and I was often working at home and could have a sleep at my desk if I needed it etc. but I don't regret having chidlren young and I am terribly pleased it was with a non sexist man.

Nicola Horlick wrote a book about working and children. I'm not sure I could do any better. I've written a lot of books but not about that topic.

comixmix, yes I thought about that sentence since writing it last night, and I agree it was tactless. I am trying somehow to get my point accross about my choices: about how choosing to embrace your biological destiny rather than denying it can be empowering (as opposed to oppressive, which is how my choice is often portrayed).

I feel patronized by the OP, quite frankly, who finds me "interesting", as you would an exhibit in a zoo. lollyhop, I gave examples of my family to show you that women staying at home has never been part of my family culture and was not the script that was set out for me. I would say that images of full-time working women by far outweigh images of SAHMs in mainstream British media, at least in the books, TV, films I watched growing up and as a teenager.
Can I ask whether your own mother and grandmother worked? Perhaps a woman can only have the confidence NOT to pursue full-time work if she is confident enough to believe that she is not oppressed. My mother most certainly worked to gain economic independance, from my father, and in the eyes of society, and I admire her for this. But I do not feel this need because of the inherent equalities that exist in my relationship with DH that women of my mother's generation did not enjoy.
DH's money is the family money. There is none of this his-money-and-my-money. I control the purse-strings. DH prefers it this way, and so do I. He gets his pocket money to spend on what he wants. I am more highly educated than DH and turned down a job the equivalent of his salary because I had to start when dd was 4 months old. So I am mildly amused at the image touted here of SAHMs being women who married for money or whatever and now feel they have to look after their man and stay young to address the power imbalance. Are there really women out there who do that. Because, honestly, I've never met one. (OK, maybe one but she was a weirdo).

DH lived alone for 12 years before we married and was a very competent bachelor. He cleans the bathroom, I do the cooking. He does the hoovering, I do the laundry. We more or less share the washing up, depending on who is most knackered. I feel that housework is divided well, which means that after the babies, my time can be focused on what I want to do (brushing up on skills /studies).
I have heard of situations where the men thesedays believe that his money is his money because "feminism" has convinced him that women are self-sufficient and therefore should earn their own money. At the same time the woman works harder than him in the home. There are many examples of this on mumsnet. Are you suggesting I am more oppressed than a woman in this situation?

I mean are their really women of our generation who marry men for money? (I realise that women from previous generations did, although I'm still not certain it was that many.)

Your posts are great Sakura, and I find them more inspiring than Xenia's, because I can relate to them more. I fail to see how choosing to look after your children full-time conflicts with being a feminist. You have summed it up well for me.

Thank you, Shells. This thread is great because there are so many different types of feminists on here and however we decide to do it, we're all striving to battle against sexism and misogyny.

Yes, I agree. Its good to bust all those myths about what makes a feminist. Liberating in itself.

Sakura, sorry if I offended. I dont think you are interesting like an exhibit at a zoo I find you interesting because you have strong views and a way of life very different to mine and yet we both clearly share the same views on feminism (can't think of a better word, hmm.. I mean the basic principals of it; that women should have freedom of choice, be equals etc)

I find that incredibly interesting because in my naivety before coming on here I would have assumed (wrongly!) that ANYONE who stays at home and takes the role of a SAHM couldnt possibly be a feminist.

Its difficult really to say about my mother and grandmother.. My Grandmother did work. Which was very rare in her time. She was/is fiercly independant by nature.
My mother was a teacher and did work but she had a job that fitted around school hols etc and always says if that wasnt the case she probably wouldnt have worked because liked being at home for my sister and I in the holidays. Also, my dad didnt earn much so sI guess she didnt have the choice. Its hard to know how much of her way of life she 'chose' She was oppressed in other ways. My dad is gay, she didnt know until theyd been married 20 years. And so she had lots ofother expectations put upon her. (thats a whole othe very long story but I know she didnt feel confident in her womanhood)

My opinions about women who stay at home - and when i say that I mean past child starting school age - have been influenced by women I have met. And there are plenty who do not have the respectful and equal relationship that you say you have with your partner.

I do think that a mother who works full time, then comes home having done the same hours as her husband/boyfriend but still takes on the housework, child care etc while he doesnt is far far far from an example of a feminist/ independant woman/ non-oppressed person.

Sadly, because of all the expectations put on women in society, this happens a lot. Women feel they have to have a succesful career as well as be a 'domestic goddess' , doting mother, carer of husband etc etc

Just saw this post from you Sakura;

This thread is great because there are so many different types of feminists on here and however we decide to do it, we're all striving to battle against sexism and misogyny.

That's what I was trying to say at the start of this one, but more eloquently!

There are ABSOLUTELY women who marry for money in our generation...
I dont mean in the true sense of actually marrying a stinking rich guy (although look at the hords of 'WAGS'the teacher in my stepdaughter's class asked everyone what they wanted to be when they grew up an 6 of the girls said WAGS) but as in marrying so that someone else can take the responsibility of earning the money while you take on your true and destined role of homemaker.

My single friend said to me the other day 'Im 38 this year, when is it my turn to meet a rich man, quit working, become a mummy and lunch all day?'

In all seriousness. And she is an intelligent woman who is educated, confident and a friend of MINE!

A friend of mine who is a director of a very succesful company is thoroughly p!ssed off that her husband doesnt earn enough money for her to quit work (her child is at school)

I could list women I have met who do marry in order to have the financial support to 'opt out' for hours!

Arghhh spelling and typos! Trying to write this quickly so I can prepare for a meeting at 10. You must all think im illiterate

4 in 5 women marry men who earn more. Argualy 4 in 5 whether consciously or not marry men for money and in a sense that is prostitution except a less open honest bargain. As long as his shirts are clean, she looks pretty, she gives good sex minds his children, ensure the wheels and cogs which enable big man to earn a crust continue he will keep her.

But all femininist means is that you believe in equal rights under the law and fairness at home so I suppose Sakura might be able over the threshold criteria but it's a shame it's always the women ditching the career not the men. If they were ni equal numbers we wouldn't still have a political job to push women on. Women are damaged every time a woman goes part time or stops work. If that truly will be the aim or choice why not send daughters to finishing school at 14 and then find them a good husband which by the way is in effect what loads of cultures do in the UK even if they are not the ones that post on mumsnet. Plenty of our local Pakistani girls go back home at 15 to marry. Plenty of the very posh girls get sent to boarding schools for thick rich and made to mix with boys of the same ilk and then cherry pick the richest one they can get. Plenty of the Jewish girls have mothers out there match making and one requirement is he's rich so none of this is new or different but it's politically dreadful.

Also it's deadly dull at home even if you do think you can find 3 hours a day to read philosphy or whatever your interests in between minding yiour 3 under 5s and cleaning the house. How could anyone clever actually want to be a housewife? I can understand the atteraction if the man is very rick so you can afford a cleaner and som part time childc are I suppose but the basic role of cleaning up is what we pay mainimum wage for because no one wants to do it.

Wow, Xenia. I dont have enough life experience or education on the subject to feel able to argue with such singlemindedness. My opinions are still forming and although I know what I feel in my heart - the same as you incidentally - I am willing to appreciate that there are women out there who are feminists but doing things a bit of a different way.

You have helped me out with one thing. I was wondering why I feel so strongly that the work I would be doing if I stayed at home to bring up children would not be equal to my working partner's... It seems so many women who do stay at home feel it is as worthy. I had 3.5 months off maternity leave when I had my daughter and I felt thoroughly redundant!
But yes as you have pointed out- that work is paid at minimum wage! My child minder charges 4.50 an hour. When we had a cleaner it was £7 an hour. My friend has an ironing person and that is 50p an item. My partner earns.. gets calculator out... maybe £30 an hour... how could I do work of minimum wage and feel equal??? There again, I earn about half what he earns and I yet I am equal to him.. I suppose if I stood by that arguement I should feel lesser than him because I earn less.. - In reality that is because he is 15 years older than me and further along in his career (for the record though, he'd better watch out cause I'm working on it!)

Ps Xenia, love the fact that you have facts to back up your arguements. I am basing my beliefs upon gut feelings and personal experience at the moment.

I have sworn to educate myself in this fascinating subject as a matter of urgency!

This is simply a classic feminist argument.

1. On one side you have people like I am - that it isn't aa men's world out there; that capitalistm isn't bad; that women can be surgeons, own hedge funds, lead nations and indeed armies and that I'd like them to be doing much more of that just as I'd like more men at home cleaning the loos - sole charge of those, not "helping".

1. On the other are feminists who say - that's nasty male bad stuff. Let's destroy capitalism and all be lovey dovey female at home in different groups/socieities, where we share things in common and it is an equally good decision to say I will nurture all my life, care, be with wash and clean and that that is a better or perfectly acceptable dual path.

Pity it's usualyl women doing the low paid dull as ditch water stuff and men doing the high paid stuff though isn't it? If cleaning at home is such fun why aren't men queuing up to do it?

Feminists can come in either category as it's just a word and anyone can use it. In fact I don't use it at all as it's become a dirty word.

You could debate your last point for hours about worth and value. It is only capitalism which rates housewife skills as very low value. Not everyone would. In a classic housewife marriage the husband earns the average wage of £20k and the wife provides skills worth £20k or more at home in terms of cost of nanny, cleaning etc. Once you get to a situation where the worker though is highly paid you then have issues over inequity unless you can say worker earning £300k has a spouse providing £300k worth of toilet cleaning.

Just want to add that I am in my twenties and a number of my friends have oppted for the find a rich man and get pregnant route. When I question their options that cite the old 'psychological damage' of childrn in nurseries thing. Frequent facebook statuses regarding the baking of bananna muffins but I'm not sure how else they're spending their time.

Now kids are nearly three and no intention of going back to work - partners seem to have no respect as two have had affairs (and not apologised). Was in Monsoon with one of them the other day while she sulked on the phone to her DP - wanting a more expensive dress.

Just my small experience but I'm absolutely baffled by the behaviour of these university educated women. What the frack is going on?

It just seems like such a huge leap of
faith - being completely dependent on another person. I think it's wonderful that you can make it Sakura.

sorry for all the typos

I'm not just dependent on my DP. We are dependent on each other. I don't want this to turn into a Working vs stay at home mother kind of thread -there are tons of those.

But just for the record, we are much worse off financially than most of our friends where both of them work. Its not about money. Its about the kind of family life we want to have. And that is not at all contradictory with my feminism.

MyG, I don't get what they get out of it either and my daughters who are early 20s would share my view too. Perhaps they just haven't had enough good examples of women surgeons, accountants, gardeners, pilots or whatever who adore their work (and families) and get huge satisfaction from it.

I rarely have things in common with housewives as I've worked for my 25 years as a mother. Interests change. There may well be some areas of common interest such as politics but plenty become interested on in the old 3 Ks - domestic matters. They get hemmed in by domesticity and indeed often are dull. Of course they aren't all dull and plenty of working parents, male and female are dull but it does open up a bit of a gulf which is why sites like mumsnet are great as you can get to talk to people and see if there is any common ground and we can each try to understand each other.

Some in effect become childlike - perhaps they want that kind of a relationship - their man doles out money, they beg him or give him sexual serviecs in return for a new dress and he laughs to his mates about how expensive his wife is to keep but all the time finds it flatters his ego to be supporting a wife who is totally reliant on him.

I've been thinking more about this exellent thread

lollyhop, yes I do see that you are trying to see my POV (although your last post speaks volumes with words "you say you have" regarding my relationship with DH i.e you can't quite believe that our relationship is the way it is. Why do you find it difficult?)

Xenia, you called yourself a capitalist feminist and that was an interesting term. You see, politically I am left-wing and therefore we are bound to view the world differently, and our feminism is going to reflect that world view. Which is good. There is no reason why two men should have the same political views because they share a penis.
I mentioned before that I regard it as anti- feminist to work in a managerial position for a multi-national company that exploits the labour of women in the third world (coffee companies do this, clothing etc. I confess I buy coffee and clothes but I could not actively work to promote those companies myself). Whereas a capitalist feminist would agree to a large salary that would free her from dependance on her husband and would collude in the exploitation of poorer women.
Another thing I would not do is work in any industry that promoted the sexualisation of young girls, so you can count out lots of PR and advertising companies there.
I am also dead against women in rich countries buying the eggs and wombs of poorer women (in their own country or abroad). Rent-a-womb is something I find hard to stomach, and women selling their eggs is abhorrent. But a woman who has worked to the top of her company may have had to sacrifice her best child-bearing years to do so and she may find this acceptable. I do not find this acceptable. Somewhere along the line men are making money out of the exchange, whether its the middle-man or the (usually male) surgeons who carry out these procedures.
These are socialist views.
Interesting that you entioned Oliver James being a socialist. He is, which is why I agree with a lot of his views. He is sexist in some places but I let him off because he confesses his short-comings with regard to that. I prefer a man who says that than a man who pretends sexism doesn't exist or like most men doesn't even acknowledge its existence and thinks women are making a big fuss over nothing.