New feminist... ?

[lollyhop2girls]

Hi There,

I stumbled across this board today and I need some advice.. info.. about feminism.

I really have never considered that I am a feminist. I dont really know anything about it at all, I am not uneducated or ignorant, just dont happen to have had the issue raised around me before. Ive never been inclined to research it either until recently.

I saw a series on TV the other day called 'Women' it was looking at a different subject each week. First I think was Women's lib, then motherhood. I think the next part is on tonight actually if anyone's interested.

I found it fascinating, particularly the motherhood episode. It looked at the way different families work and the different roles that women play in the home.

I am a full time working mum of a 4 year old girl. I live with my boyfriend and for half of the week his 10 year old daughter.

I have always had strong views on how I am often judged for working full time. I get angry at articles in newspapers about how because I work my children arent having the right start in life, I am selfish, I dont feed my kids properly, they watch too much TV blah blah blah. (none of that is true in my case actually and if I think of all the mothers I have known over the last few years; the ones who stay at home with their kids actually are more likely to turn to frozen ready meals, day time TV and hours on the computer - not wanting to generalise, just speaking from my own observations)

I also have strong views on women who infantilize themselves be it financially, independance etc

I also hate when people say to my daughter 'when you grow up and get married' or when they constantly comment on how pretty she is rather than how clever.

Also, my step daughter is obsessed with dieting at only 10 years old. Her mother very openly diets and agonises over her apperance with her daughter. I mean, christ does she WANT her to grow up thinking she can only be succesful and happy if shes thin? (Her mother also tells her that school isnt really important because shes so pretty she'll probably just marry someone rich and not have to worry... arghhhhhhh)

In fact I think I may be an out and out feminist but still not really sure what that would mean..

Anyone got any advice.. comments..?

Sorry, I must sound a be naive. I would just like to know more because most of the time in the world we live in I feel quite alone sometimes.. if there was a group that had the same ideas etc as myself I would feel less so.

Thnaks.

But the even better men are capitalists who are also keen to strike out inequalities. Most female progress has come about because of economic interests and that doesn't matter as long as we get the legal equality and opportunities we need.

But I don't like that brand of feminism which says women are only into babies, cleaning up and the home and that tehrefore if 99% of women choose not to work and stay home serving men this is some kind of liberated choice. That's a load of old rubbish. They women need to go to the Xenia weekend deprogramming school to get their sexist upbringing removed from their psyche.

Arghh I have so many things to do today I can only respond to one part of this
I actually typed out "you say you have" "you have" "you say you have"-- etc etc but chose the later because it seemed funny to say "you have" when I dont know you.. I suppose I do also find it hard to beleive because I have never encountered it before.

"lollyhop, yes I do see that you are trying to see my POV (although your last post speaks volumes with words "you say you have" regarding my relationship with DH i.e you can't quite believe that our relationship is the way it is. Why do you find it difficult?)"

And another thing...

I think that women had to break into all public spheres to dispell the myth that women's fulfillment ultimately comes from the home and children.
That was necessary. Men needed that wake-up call.
But whereas before you had mainly men scorning women who valued child-rearing, now you have women who scorn this role as well. The status of women who care for children (already low to begin with ) is at an all-time low. Can'T you see that this is a male view? To look down on "essential work" is what men have traditionally done. Aren't the women who look down on it, or regard it as oppressive, merely adopting a masculinist stance? We've already got enough men sneering at women or discounting what they do(I'm thinking of that recent thread about mothers eating crisps on the sofa or something )

And yet.. at the same time I would not personally want to be in this role forever. I am a first-born and (I think) have quite a high testosterone level. So I will be back in the workforce, and thanks to the women of my mother's and grandmother's generation, this is possible. As I said, we need to work on re-defining the working culture because I think that if a woman takes time out to look after her children and is thought badly of because of it (like the example given above about that teacher being marginalised), then men most definitely are still in charge. A woman should be revered for her contribution to society and be respected accordingly, not forced into the "mommy track" if she takes a career break.

...my 'Emphasis' never works on this board..

Ah, I see now lollyhop. Sorry, I'm too pedantic!

Oh no, now Im here I cant leave and I really have a whole list of things to be doing!

A lot of the fault for people looking down on what housewives/ SAHMs do lies with (some) women Im afraid. I read a thread on mumsnet where a woman was saying how annoying it is now the kids are off school for easter she didnt have any time to herself to mumsnet/ meet her friends/ cathch up on TV/ do housework etcetc

That kind of comment instantly makes one question the arguement that staying at home past when your kids are school age is worthwhile..

NOO, the idea that women are only into babies is a male view, surely? Its a caricature. People think that of me all the time when I am out and about with my babies. I want to scream NOOO, I am interested in politics, languages, literature, philosophy, art, business...and could probably debate you into a hole. But womenbecause they're womenare regarded as being only interested in babies, moreso if they choose to look after them themselves.
Anyway, I think everyone on this thread has a lot in common, because everyone on here cares. There is a view in some circles that "feminism has gone too far", or there are some educated women I know in real life could not even have this conversation because they don't even know the issues involved.

No it's cool Sakura. I love it actually! So refreshing to be questioned rather than how it works so often in real life where someone is just confused/ takes offense/ gets upset because they havent understood what was meant!

My arguements are always about staying home once kids are past school age by the way because I havent formed my opinion of staying at home while their not aschool yet.

But yes, I agree this doesnt need to become a pro or anti STAMs thread.
That's only a small part of what made me decide to 'out myself' in my OP

Come on it's as dully as ditch water. I'm not mislead by men to think cleaning up baby sit and reading nursery rhymes 24/7 is interesting. In all cultures in all times women realise it's dull and get their motehr or the older siblings to do it. As soon as women have any money or power they outsource it. those who have no briains or intereset or choice or have been conditioned by sexist cultures want to be there 24/7.

it's not some wonderful choice to clean the loos whilst men run nations. I just cannot get women who like to with 3 under 5s all day with no help around the house. What's wrong with them? Don't they want variety? Don't they want to wrestle over running a company or difficult accountancy points as well as homethings which have always been part of a balanced life?

Occasionally I find I am sitting next to women who want to talk tax policy or psychology or history but very very sadly most of the housewives I've met seem to change their interests and limit their brains and genuinely not to find those subjects interest and instead want to talk about which brand of washing powder is best. I don't think I knew how to operate the washer for part of my marriage as I subcontracted that out to my children's father or the cleaner.

incidentally with so many chidlren I still spend a lot of time doing domestic things as do all full time working fathers and mothers. I've emptied the dishwasher this morning even though I'm working but that doesn't mean I preferred those dishwasher emptying moments more than I enjoyed reading today's Times or the little bit of work I did earlier.

at Xenia's capitalist approach in everything she does including outsourcing childcare.

I was out a few weeks ago with female friends in a restaurant, and a man was walking around with his small baby. He kept trying to engage us in discussing the baby, and while we kept making appropriate noises, he just didn't seem to understand that we weren't interested/impressed. Finally my friend said rather directly, 'we all have babies at home, know the drill, and this is our baby free time, so please leave us alone...'

Even many of the left wing find all day childcare and house work dull. It doesn't mean you don't want it for a few hours a day of course which is why most full time working men and women choose to have children - we adore it and love having families but just don't want only to do that.

In communist China they tried for a time to pay doctors less than street sweepers but it didn't really work, never does. The market values things. If you're pretty and nice to be with and sexy and slim you'll get a better husband or wife just as you will if you earn more. If you're so mentally unstable you cannot form close loving relationships you're less likely to find a partner. Ditto if you've no legs or an IQ of 80.

Oh Xenia, where have I said I enjoy housework, or that women do!!??!! I agree with you on that. Thats why I mentioned that DH managed to live alone for 12 years before we married and didn't magically unlearn how to clean up after himself when we married. In fact I think my house is fairer than those houses where there is a cleaner because in my house DH actually cleans the bathroom and does the hoovering (his jobs) whereas if there's a cleaner in most cases the man then has not just one but two women cleaning up after him .
I am arguing for "childcare" work not to be trivialised, to be valued, and to be paid accordingly. Ideally I think women ( or whoever carries out this work) should be properly paid for it.
I am annoyed that people link looking after your babies with housework. I don 't ever clean the loo either because DH is Japanese and they've all got a toilet obsession. We've got this washlet-type thing with all these buttons on it and I think it cleans itself (either that or DH does it).

Oh god yes. Hear hear. My house is a tip. I HATE housework. But I concede that it needs to be done and I object to paying (another woman) some pittance to sort out our shit. So I (grudgingly) do it, well quite a lot of it. DP does pitch in too.
I'm not working full time because of my children. Not because of my house. Or my husbands needs. Its a totally different thing. But I don't subscribe to capitalist feminism anyway - so totally at odds with that line of thinking.

But that makes feel even worse Sakura. Japanese men and culture is one of them ost sexist on earth, all those silly child like girl women who stay at home. When will 60% of Japanese Boards be female? It's a dreadful culture for women's rights and you could be playig your political role by being in one marriage to a japanese man where the woman does work and you don't. That really disappoints me. You almost have a political duty married to a Japanese man to cut through that sexist culture and show that Japanese men can in fact love to have wivse who are leading surgeons rather than just glorified nannies and servants no matter how good he is at cleaning the bathrooms.

Leave aside all housework and assume children are under three, then even then isn't it just totally boring to be playing with them for 12 hour days whilst the man it out working? 2 or 3 hours great but more than that don't you get bored?

I had a male cleaner for about a year, until he went on to do other things. (He's a friend of mine, which is probably how I knew he was doing cleaning work, otherwise I might well not have heard about him or given him a go, I suppose.) On the one hand I wasn't using another woman to sort out our shit, on the other hand, er, would another woman need the money more? He did a good job, mind.

I don't in fact object to paying another woman to do the cleaning, so long as I pay her a good wage. I appreciate that cleaning wages are not high in themselves, so I would want to pay what I feel comfortable with, which would be comparable to eg gardening wages (a more gender-neutral kind of work). But in fact what I/we do nowadays is share out the work between us, and (heh) cut down on what we actually do do, because we neither of us want to spend ages on dusting & hoovering.

It's an interesting point about false market values. Personally, I think that teaching, at least from a social value stance, should be up there with doctors as far as attracting the highest caliber of people; people who choose to teach others should be highly paid, but for some reason teachers as a profession aren't paid well, even though they work hard, and are skilled. Perhaps because it's that teaching has been a traditionally female job that it's so low paid/low status in comparison to other professions?

Although one of my family is a doctor and she said if she had to do it over again, she'd be a plumber. Yup, just her and her van.

Capitalist femininsts as I am don't see any problem in paying anyone of any gender to do work for us. The market values things at what it values things. The pretty slim tall girl will always hook the better man. Mrs Woods might only have been an au pair but she's pretty and tall and blonde and young and slim so her economic currency is higher and I'm sure if you wanted to be a bit part in the Woods saga you'd need to meet a market value criteria in terms of your looks. But I'd rather manage him for a % or be the sportstar. Woman as passive supporter is what feminism would like to eradicate - at least capitalist feminists would.

Yes Xenia, I see your point about it being my "duty" to pioneer women's rights regarding work.

The interesting thing about Japan, while we're onto it, is that daycare here is very good and cheap. My Canadian friend here has 6 kids and works full-time, earning far more than her Japanese husband you'll be pleased to know. At the nursery she uses, the first child is full price, second child half-price and third child free! There are separate nurseries for the days your child is sick. There are even "night" nurseries for mothers who work nights.
But I look at my friend's life and although I love her and we meet every week ( we went out together on Friday night as a matter of fact, leaving the husbands with the kids) I personally wouldn't have left my children in daycare so young the way she did. We respect each other's choices, but I'm sure she thinks the same as you regarding my decision. My decision wasn't made because I was oppressed, it was an active choice.

The only reason there is a power imbalance is because right now I am not working full-time. Although I actually do bits and bobs earning money (online translations, teaching english one evening a week, and a small teaching business I run with my friend- twice a week). But I didn't think it relevant to mention them because obviously the pay is small compared with DH's.

As I said, within my relationship I feel there is equality. I gave a few examples above and DH gets up with me in the night to rock the baby back to sleep (we take it in turns), he takes the kids out on Saturdays by himself, does the housework at the weekends (thinking about this thread I observed the house situation on Sunday morning- the place was a TIP and DH quietly tidied it up and made breakfast for the kids before I woke up.) I find it fair.

And once the kids are a little older ( it really is such a short time) I will be able to return to work full-time.

Have to say that although Japan is very sexist, the "silly child-like girl-women" is a bit of a misnomer. I think it is a bit of an "orientalist" view. There are women in Japan who work in managerial positions in male-dominated industries, although to be fair not as many as other Asian countries like Singapore, HOng Kong, China. Actually Japan is probably worse than all those countries but a lot of women are made of steel and run their own businesses despite the culture.

Another thing I've done and gained the very grudging respect of my MIL was to win a literary award last year and become a published writer. DS was 4 weeks old when the award ceremony was being held, so DH wrangled time off work to come back to the UK with me to look after DD and our newborn while I did a reading there. A trans-continental flight with a 3 1/2 week old is not much fun. So DH is supportive of me- we support each other.

I didn't particularly want to get too personal but just about every Japanese woman I know in London over stresses her children - they are always the ones pushed and pushed to get to their grae 8 music exams, fussed over, pressured to get good grades and the ole role of those women as well as to serve their husbands a home is a kind of push push things which I find so objectionable. I cannot think of a single local one out here in this bit of London who has a thrusting successful career like a surgeon whilst married with children and yet I know loads of English women who do. And there are large numbers of British men who seek oriental brides who will indeed do what they are told and not work. It's just just made up that that is so. That doesn't mean Japanese women in Japan aren't trying to break the mould and I hope they are all ensuring their daughters don't go anywhere near that pernicious sexist model but I do feel japan is hugely behind the US and UK in women's rights, not so much under the law but in terms of women working and relationships at home. And we have had some dreadful cases of sex discrimination in Japanese companies in London too which doesn't help the image of Japan as femininst haven where working mothers thrive.

I suppose I will now be innundated by UK Japanese mumsnetters who earn over £100k pa and who have Japanese househusbands.

(I agree some jobs are deadly dull and hopefully women of sense will want to be on the board of Tesco and not the till and they won't get on the board by staying home whilst they have 4 babies cleaning the house).

NO, I don't mind (I mean, I think its only us two left on this thread anyway).

Yes, Japanese women have their own set of problems. But as I said before I don't think there is only one way forward out of it. And I don't think that for women to completely turn their backs on child-rearing is the way forward for feminism. Women as mothers in Japan do have more respect than they do in the UK . Yes, yes I know that this is a circumscribed role for them and thats not good, but still, it can't be a good thing when the media of the UK is rife with misogyny, specifically against mothers. And I wonder if that isn't partly because a lot of BRitish women themselves have bought into the myth that looking after young children is inferior work. Its not what women should do, or have to do, but whoever carries out the work should be afforded proper respect- and at the moment they are not.

Got to argue with you about the Oriental brides bit. I laugh my head off at that here. Its true that a few British and American men come to Japan looking for a "little oriental flower" to stay at home. But then they get married and the shit hits the fan. BEcause Japanese women don't have freedoms in society, they rule and dominate the home in a way that British women don't. SO in many many ways British women are, I can say, "softer". So what you get then is Western men who have the shock of their life when they realise they have to hand their pay packet over to their wife, that their wife spends all her spare time with her family, and in some cases regards the man as a walking wallet. It really is true that Japanese women rule in the home. But not in the public sphere, of course. I don't think this is right either, but I just have to say that the image of what British men think they're getting when they marry a Japanese woman and what they actually get is quite different. Tee hee.

My friend (the 6 kids one) works with quite a few British and American men. They corner her at work and try to talk with her about their lives and problems. She's always got a million things she has to be doing. The tales of woe that these men tell her about their marriages! I don't know why they tell my friend these things, after all, she is a western woman.